Going to an AVR Preamp. Diehard 2chan guy

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I see your point and totally agree with your recommendations, I least for me anyways. Its' not always about, 'avr, Avr, AVR!.'. I'm out fellas. Gotta run today, shopping to do at Best Buy in the Magnolia Department.

Good luck.

 

[TechHDS]

Good luck.

lol..going mess with one of the ' Geek Squad' guys. I like seeing their face turn red in person When I tell them Monster Cables can't compete with Amazon basic cables. Have a good one today, ADTG.. Walker Texas Ranger. . but I really prefer to be called Bruce Lee. .

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

lol..going mess with one of the ' Geek Squad' guys. I like seeing their face turn red in person When I tell them Monster Cables can't compete with Amazon basic cables. Have a good one today, ADTG.. Walker Texas Ranger. . but I really prefer to be called Bruce Lee. .

Those Geek Squad guys are only good with PC stuffs. Every time I talk to them about audio, they seem clueless.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

it may be best to get the less expensive pre-pro (instead of the much more expensive AVR)

I think many people do realize that some $5,500 flagship AVRs actually have higher-end internal components (like DACs, processors, preamp sections) than some Pre-pros.

I think many people don’t realize that a few expensive pre-pros actually have less high-end internal parts than some $2,000 AVRs.

Nevertheless, this statement I made yesterday sounds funny, ironic, like an oxymoron.

But it’s one such case where it makes more sense to buy “separates”, instead of AVR.

So it’s definitely not always AVR, AVR, AVR!

 

[TechHDS]

If comments like “AVRs” don’t sound as good or don’t have as much headroom as Pre-pros don’t bother you.

Which is less expensive from A4L, Marantz pre-pro (AV-7702 for $850 or TLS’s guy’s Marantz pre-pro for about $400) or flagship AVR?

Since you already have the Amps, it may be best to get the less expensive Marantz pre-pro and own “separates”.

I think many people do realize that some $5,500 flagship AVRs actually have higher-end internal components (like DACs, processors, preamp sections) than some Pre-pros.

I think many people don’t realize that a few expensive pre-pros actually have less high-end internal parts than some $2,000 AVRs.

Nevertheless, this statement I made yesterday sounds funny, ironic, like an oxymoron.

But it’s one such case where it makes more sense to buy “separates”, instead of AVR.

So it’s definitely not always AVR, AVR, AVR!

@ADTG, separates are the way to go when trying to achieve better sound quality. Some in this hobby can not afford a totally separate system, each with it's dedicated function and purpose. A processor, surround sound only no doubt is the way to go if that's your thing HD Dolby Surround formats. Adding a 'two channel pre-amp say like a Parasound,Krell..ect, to a existing AVR, to achieve better sound quality for 2-channel serious listening. Most Pre-Amps in most AVR,s are Not design to give you excellent sound quality for 2-channel serious listening. Especially mid-level to bottom feeder unit AVR's. Any serious enthusiast with this hobby probably knows that already. What you do get in flagship 'AVR'..is a 'mix' of everything with the latest surround sound formats. But you won't get high quality parts, and lets not forget the engineer's 'signature' on a separates. Bob Carver, John Curl, ect. that design specific circuitry for manufacturers. Hence that leave their 'signature' on it. Macintosh, Pass Lab, and other high-end audio/video gear maker's have some of the best engineers and those dudes don't come cheap. So with that said, the AVR thing is what it is. Some other manufacturers of AVR, units just have very poor quality control departments. That's the trade off when you have your gear manufactured in China. Just ask anyone with Onkyo, Emotiva, and others who experience poor quality control.

 

[lovinthehd]

I could afford separates, and did go that route a long time ago. All the hype didn't pan out, tho. My avrs do a marvelous job, even without power amps (and I've done both with and without, without these days as I'm just not going as loud any more). I've compared, the disadvantage isn't sound quality, but rather the lack of features in the old 2ch gear for digital audio and surround sound and bass management and internet/network capabilities....YMMV.

If you prefer old 2ch analog stuff then my route may not appeal to you.

@ADTG, separates are the way to go when trying to achieve better sound quality. Some in this hobby can not afford a totally separate system, each with it's dedicated function and purpose. A processor, surround sound only no doubt is the way to go if that's your thing HD Dolby Surround formats. Adding a 'two channel pre-amp say like a Parasound,Krell..ect, to a existing AVR, to achieve better sound quality for 2-channel serious listening. Most Pre-Amps in most AVR,s are Not design to give you excellent sound quality for 2-channel serious listening. Especially mid-level to bottom feeder unit AVR's. Any serious enthusiast with this hobby probably knows that already. What you do get in flagship 'AVR'..is a 'mix' of everything with the latest surround sound formats. But you won't get high quality parts, and lets not forget the engineer's 'signature' on a separates. Bob Carver, John Curl, ect. that design specific circuitry from manufacturers. Hence that leave their 'signature' on it. Macintosh, Pass Lab, and other high-end audio/video gear maker's have some of the best engineers and those dudes don't come cheap. So with that said, the AVR thing is what it is. Some other manufacturers of AVR, units just have very poor quality control departments. That's the trade off when you have your gear manufactured in China. Just ask anyone with Onkyo, Emotiva, and others who experience poor quality control.

 

[M Code]

Those Geek Squad guys are only good with PC stuffs. Every time I talk to them about audio, they seem clueless.

Hmmm....
The geek squad set up my Pyle and Bose components, I will put them up against any component system they sound pretty good..

Just my $0.02...

 

[TechHDS]

I could afford separates, and did go that route a long time ago. All the hype didn't pan out, tho. My avrs do a marvelous job, even without power amps (and I've done both with and without, without these days as I'm just not going as loud any more). I've compared, the disadvantage isn't sound quality, but rather the lack of features in the old 2ch gear for digital audio and surround sound and bass management and internet/network capabilities....YMMV.

If you prefer old 2ch analog stuff then my route may not appeal to you.

@loveinthehd, Speaking for myself here with a Flagship AVR, Marantz Denon Yamaha, I believe 'matching' the right Speaker's, especially the front mains, front 3, then surroundeds, L/R mains don't have to be Tower's. Yes achieving very good sound quality with a AVR can be done, also proper room treatments added. Going separates can be very expensive some still like analog gear, tube amps, tube, SS, together in the same box. When Harmon, combined, amp, pre-amp and tuner in one box to bring to the masses for home audio. AVR Market has him to thank. I like AVR's, and I am thinking of going with a pair of nice bookshelf speakers..one really good sub, and a flagship avr. That way alone I would achieve better sound quality than my current setup. AVR from accessories4less , Flagship entry level bookshelves and sub from a reputable manufacturer. Can all be had for about 3 g's..

 

[TLS Guy]

@loveinthehd, Speaking for myself here with a Flagship AVR, Marantz Denon Yamaha, I believe 'matching' the right Speaker's, especially the front mains, front 3, then surroundeds, L/R mains don't have to be Tower's. Yes achieving very good sound quality with a AVR can be done, also proper room treatments added. Going separates can be very expensive some still like analog gear, tube amps, tube, SS, together in the same box. When Harmon, combined, amp, pre-amp and tuner in one box to bring to the masses for home audio. AVR Market has him to thank. I like AVR's, and I am thinking of going with a pair of nice bookshelf speakers..one really good sub, and a flagship avr. That way alone I would achieve better sound quality than my current setup. AVR from accessories4less , Flagship entry level bookshelves and sub from a reputable manufacturer. Can all be had for about 3 g's..

I think you are about to make a common mistake, unless you want to listen at low volumes.

This idea arises from the myth that all the power is in the sub range. That is total rubbish. The need for power is above sub range and mainly from 80 Hz to 1500 Hz with plenty of need for resources out to 2.5 KHz and actually sometimes above that.

The range from 80 to 600 Hz is particularly power hungry, as for most speakers that is where BSC kicks in and doubles power demands and then some.

The idea that a 5 or 6 inch driver in a bookshelf speaker is going to give you realistic clean dynamics and spl. is totally ridiculous.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think you are about to make a common mistake, unless you want to listen at low volumes.

This idea arises from the myth that all the power is in the sub range. That is total rubbish. The need for power is above sub range and mainly from 80 Hz to 1500 Hz with plenty of need for resources out to 2.5 KHz and actually sometimes above that.

The range from 80 to 600 Hz is particularly power hungry, as for most speakers that is where BSC kicks in and doubles power demands and then some.

The idea that a 5 or 6 inch driver in a bookshelf speaker is going to give you realistic clean dynamics and spl. is totally ridiculous.

Is there a calculator for determining the amount of power for particular frequencies? Doesn't the need for power increase as you get into lower frequencies? If so, wouldn't it depend on the amount of information below 80hz vs above it to an extent?

ps Didn't ask this question well now that I look again. Should have asked in terms of typical speakers and eq needs rather than simply the frequency involved but not entirely sure if there's an actual higher energy level required....

 

[TechHDS]

Is there a calculator for determining the amount of power for particular frequencies? Doesn't the need for power increase as you get into lower frequencies? If so, wouldn't it depend on the amount of information below 80hz vs above it to an extent?

@loveinthehd, question, on my Yamaha 7790 'Bass Cross Over' it starts at 40Hz up 200 Hz, for Moves only, I know it's recommended from 120 to 80 Hertz. THX says 80 Hz. Towers are set to fullband. Back Sub is set all the way, I have the ' volume set to about 1/3 before 12:O:Clock. I have my 'Bass Cross Over' set to 40 Hz..with it set like that am I losing info with TrueHD or MasterHD. 2nd question, Music 2.1. if I have to re set the 'Bass Cross Over' to say 80 Hz for Moves, will I have to go back and set 'Bass Cross Over' back to 40 Hz for 2.1 for music listening? Been wanting to ask those two questions.

 

[TechHDS]

I think you are about to make a common mistake, unless you want to listen at low volumes.

This idea arises from the myth that all the power is in the sub range. That is total rubbish. The need for power is above sub range and mainly from 80 Hz to 1500 Hz with plenty of need for resources out to 2.5 KHz and actually sometimes above that.

The range from 80 to 600 Hz is particularly power hungry, as for most speakers that is where BSC kicks in and doubles power demands and then some.

The idea that a 5 or 6 inch driver in a bookshelf speaker is going to give you realistic clean dynamics and spl. is totally ridiculous.

I know of a person personally , who has told me the same thing. He works with mixing in a home studio. We talked about just what you posted. You just helped me with EQ range. I am going back into my manual EQ settings on my Yamaha 7790 and see where I can adjust for improvements, 'slope' on my Polk M70-ll's isn' t the greatest.

 

[lovinthehd]

@loveinthehd, question, on my Yamaha 7790 'Bass Cross Over' it starts at 40Hz up 200 Hz, for Moves only, I know it's recommended from 120 to 80 Hertz. THX says 80 Hz. Towers are set to fullband. Back Sub is set all the way, I have the ' volume set to about 1/3 before 12:O:Clock. I have my 'Bass Cross Over' set to 40 Hz..with it set like that am I losing info with TrueHD or MasterHD. 2nd question, Music 2.1. if I have to re set the 'Bass Cross Over' to say 80 Hz for Moves, will I have to go back and set 'Bass Cross Over' back to 40 Hz for 2.1 for music listening? Been wanting to ask those two questions.

Not sure what you are you referring to by "bass crossover" (is that the term in the Yamaha manual?)....is it an LPF for the LFE channel or the normal crossover (which is a speaker/sub crossover setting). LFE channel usually has content up to 120hz so that's the general recommendation for the LPF of LFE channel (altho possibly higher frequencies can be recorded on that channel). I'd think you would indeed lose information by limiting the LPF of LFE to 40hz for soundtracks with an LFE (.1) channel. Crossovers for your speakers (i.e. those set to small) the general recommendation to start with is 80hz, or experiment above and below that. If you have a double bass setting life LFE+Main then you can set a speaker to large and still get bass redirected to the sub....

ps Just had a look at the manual "bass cross over" is just what is usually simply called crossover in an avr.

 

[TechHDS]

Not sure what you are you referring to by "bass crossover" (is that the term in the Yamaha manual?)....is it an LPF for the LFE channel or the normal crossover (which is a speaker/sub crossover setting). LFE channel usually has content up to 120hz so that's the general recommendation for the LPF of LFE channel (altho possibly higher frequencies can be recorded on that channel). I'd think you would indeed lose information by limiting the LPF of LFE to 40hz for soundtracks with an LFE (.1) channel. Crossovers for your speakers (i.e. those set to small) the general recommendation to start with is 80hz, or experiment above and below that. If you have a double bass setting life LFE+Main then you can set a speaker to large and still get bass redirected to the sub....

ps Just had a look at the manual "bass cross over" is just what is usually simply called crossover in an avr.

Thanks!...going look now OSD..For some reason on the 7790, using the OSD in the set-up there isn't a setting that will show, LFE+Main or LPF of LFE. Craziest thing I tell you, every unit I have ever had and I do mean every AVR had those settings..umm..think I will sell off this AVR. I don't like having to guess sittings I do believe Yamaha dropped the ball on this line.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks!...going look now OSD..For some reason on the 7790, using the OSD in the set-up there isn't a setting that will show, LFE+Main or LPF of LFE. Craziest thing I tell you, every unit I have ever had and I do mean every AVR had those settings..umm..think I will sell off this AVR. I don't like having to guess sittings I do believe Yamaha dropped the ball on this line.

Now that I think about it think someone else said recently their Yamaha doesn't have LPF of LFE, might just not be a feature in all Yamahas....Yamaha also has some odd naming for sound modes and such that don't match up to other mfrs. Odd that it doesn't have double bass/LFE+Main, tho (at least I see nothing in the manual either). Was this from a special series of avrs for some big box retailers? They do have a bit different model number style....

 

[TechHDS]

Now that I think about it think someone else said recently their Yamaha doesn't have LPF of LFE, might just not be a feature in all Yamahas....Yamaha also has some odd naming for sound modes and such that don't match up to other mfrs. Odd that it doesn't have double bass/LFE+Main, tho (at least I see nothing in the manual either). Was this from a special series of avrs for some big box retailers? They do have a bit different model number style....

.
Got that unit from accessories4less at a great price but Yamaha makes those for Costco B&M store. Unit has performed flawlessly to date, the EQ to me anyways is Superior than Onkyo Harman Kardon units and Sony can't say about the ES line..it has pre'amp out, No Atmos or DTS-X. But I agree with you Yamaha has some strange things on their units. They have this extra Bass you set to on or off... just strange for a AVR that sold for 800 bucks new.

 

[lovinthehd]

I forgot about looking for "extra bass" which is probably the same thing as double bass/LFE+Main?

 

[TechHDS]

I forgot about looking for "extra bass" which is probably the same thing as double bass/LFE+Main?

I believe so, I usually run automatic setup then I use a SPL meter, then I tweet the setting some, sometimes I'll run Sub a lil hot depends on the source. I didn't do the SPL meter this time, well cause I was going to upgrade to a entry-level flagship unit this come OCT, but now for sure I will..unit would do well as a bedroom, game room set-up it does sound good. I gave my Onkyo NR656 and a pair of Polk M60 as a Christmas present last Dec to my youngest Son. Now he pissed at me, lol even adult son's still have room to grow. I gotta stop doing that..lol..

 

[TechHDS]

So last night my Parasound P5 preamp has given me another issue. The sub control on the back only works in the OFF position. Or full range. No cutting the HZ to it. Strange as it's always worked until last night and I keep both positions for the main and sub on to trim them both.

So on to my question from a sub topic in another thread. Before Purchasing the Marantz AVR Pre amp, will this really give me AS GOOD of playback sound as if I were to buy a dedicated Marantz Integrated Reference amp? The PM-14S1 to be specific vs the AV7703 running with my ATI 2002 amp?

umm...even a very reputable manufacturer of mid-level gear has quality control issues. I had a Parasound two channel pre-amp with HT-by-pass, with bass management. Paired with a Onkyo 818..the pre-amp in that Onkyo sucked in it for two channel 2.1 serious listening. So I added a Parasound pre-amp. Now back to your issue, with your pre-amp. At times mine would do the same thing what yours is doing. I had to send it in for repair. Got it back, performed flawlessly for years. That's one sweet system you have there. What model are your front and center towers?

 

[TechHDS]

Hmmm....
The geek squad set up my Pyle and Bose components, I will put them up against any component system they sound pretty good..

Just my $0.02...

@M Code, probably the best $0.02 I've ever read. I'm going change my like to winner. Would you be interested in joining, ADGT and I over at some of the other audio/video sites? ADGT and I left some fires burning.. . BOSE gear 901's when set up right in a' club' first time I heard, BOSE 901's was in a 'Club' The reflected sound was amazing, really.