Why didn't they choose an AVR?

A

Andrein

Senior Audioholic
KR also mentioned something I found interesting:

"it was probably the AHB2's low noise level that revealed to me much more apparent low-level detail in already-familiar recordings. I qualify that statement with apparent because, after hearing the AHB2 uncover previously unheard subtle details, I found I could now hear them when I returned to my other amps. I suspect that, being newly informed of their existence, my ear/brain could more easily extract those details from the output provided all along by my other amplifiers."

That's one reason why I don't mind his subjective reviews because he's not shy to admit it when he realized Placebo effect works on him too. (Note: he didn't say that, but it seems obvious that's Placebo).
It is not exactly placebo. If you know that something is there then obviously it is easier to expect this. But when you hear something new you dont expect, it is not placebo. Hearing and smell feeling is so deep into our brains that if you suddenly hear something, i woud rather trust that rather than try to find some pseudo psychological placebo explanation to that.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
On concern I have is the high-frequency switching noise.
Here is an image from the review of the Theta Digital N-Core amp.
Could this noise be a problem for some tweeters or is the power level too low.

- RichView attachment 23456
I am sure that won't be an issue for me at all but you seem to have much more discerning hearing than me.:D Again, either way you are going to get the switching technology, in the PS for the Benchmark and in the amp for the ATI.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Such crap. Imagine the frequency response or distortion differences (even TIM) that would be required to produce these audible effects. Or perhaps the differences are completely result of inter-sample overs, and KR was using an inferior DAC. (Not. Most likely just journalistic BS.)
The way he worded, if I were a total noob reading that review, I might think a receiver could sound better. :eek:
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
KR also mentioned something I found interesting:

"it was probably the AHB2's low noise level that revealed to me much more apparent low-level detail in already-familiar recordings. I qualify that statement with apparent because, after hearing the AHB2 uncover previously unheard subtle details, I found I could now hear them when I returned to my other amps. I suspect that, being newly informed of their existence, my ear/brain could more easily extract those details from the output provided all along by my other amplifiers."

That's one reason why I don't mind his subjective reviews because he's not shy to admit it when he realized Placebo effect works on him too. (Note: he didn't say that, but it seems obvious that's Placebo).
He definitely implied placebo tactfully. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
It seems the AHB2 robs this recording of "its bell-like richness". ;)
Just make sure the speakers don’t require more than 107 watts into 8 ohms and the bell-like richness will be intact. :eek:
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It is not exactly placebo. If you know that something is there then obviously it is easier to expect this.
Agree, I thought about editing out the word Placebo too but didn't bother in the end because either way I thought it reinforced my belief that subjective reviews are highly subjective, to be ignored or best taken with a grain of salt. It is more like expectation bias in this case as KR himself alluded to.

Hearing and smell feeling is so deep into our brains that if you suddenly hear something, i woud rather trust that rather than try to find some pseudo psychological placebo explanation to that.
That, I must disagree, but perhaps I misunderstood your point. To me, KR made it quite clear in simple language that what he thought missing was there all along. He repeated the same observation later on in the review, when listening to a different piece.

It didn't surprise me at all because it happened to me too, more than once. The first time I added an Adcom amp to my AVR I thought there was an obvious improvement in bass and transparency overall. Same thing happen when I substituted it with my 4B SST. Later on when I went back to do more lengthy AB comparison sessions, without the often recommended volume match to 0.1 dB, I found out the difference I heard was due to expectation bias. The expectation probably came from the fact that I know the amps have superior specs on paper, and the huge difference in price between the devices being compared and I had read many subjective rave reviews of the Adcom and Bryston amps prior. After that, expectation bias did not have the same effects on me any more. When I acquired the Halo amp, NAD, Cambridge Audio, Anthem, Marantz etc., and now the $240 QSC amp, I did not anticipate hearing details that I haven't heard before, the expectation bias sort of started to work in reverse order:D. Anyway, we can agree to disagree, I am just sharing my personal experience though I should mention that some of the comparison sessions were done in the presence of others, and there was consensus so I know it wasn't just me.
 
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RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
Except slew rate is not as impressive as it's super low THD+N and super high SNR.
Yes and I have asked about slew rate on this forum and read the articles. At one point, I thought it indicated the amps ability to deliver power amps but the answer has always been that it is really an indicator of bandwidth. But the 10K square wave from Stereophile looks good.

AHB2SQWave.jpg

The frequency response chart with some variance under simulated and more difficult load.

AHB2FreqResp.jpg

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements

- Rich
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes and I have asked about slew rate on this forum and read the articles. At one point, I thought it indicated the amps ability to deliver power amps but the answer has always been that it is really an indicator of bandwidth. But the 10K square wave from Stereophile looks good.

View attachment 23457

The frequency response chart with some variance under simulated and more difficult load.

View attachment 23458

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements

- Rich
It looks good but it is only 16V/uS. It is an indicator of bandwidth but the output voltage is also in the equation. 16V/uS is more than enough for 108 V into 8 ohms in terms of bandwidth. I am only surprised that it isn't twice as high, considering it's THD+N and SNR are far superior (again on paper so ADTG hold your horse) than amps in similar price range.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
More like expectation bias right?
We get the meaning, though - bias, placebo, subjective, etc.

Bottom line - the Benchmark amp doesn’t sound any better than other good amps.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
AVR amps are continually getting downsized power supplies to make room all of the features. Box logo's are at an all time-high. Rest assured there is no compromise in qualtiy though ;)

Anybody tried engaging 4 Ohm mode on their AVR lately to observe the impact and the volume at which it occurs? :eek:

- Rich
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
AVR amps are continually getting downsized power supplies to make room all of the features. Box logo's are at an all time-high. Rest assured there is no compromise in qualtiy though ;)

Anybody tried engaging 4 Ohm mode on their AVR lately to observe the impact and the volume at which it occurs? :eek:

- Rich
Why would one use the "4 ohm" setting? Receiver amp vs an external power amp was always a compromise based on needs....has that particularly changed over the years?
 

TechHDS

Audioholic General
I have a question, going from 8 Ohms to 4 Ohm load, whether it be an AVR or add on amp don't you lose something? umm..does the headroom run out faster with a 4 Ohm load? read somewhere that #1 amp can run hotter at reference levels? can't remember exactly, but It is one of the reasons a add on amp could be needed among all the obvious reason, room size, difficult demanding speakers to drive..ect. I added a amp well cause I am addicted to the Dynamics that a add on amp offers at reference volume level..
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I have a question, going from 8 Ohms to 4 Ohm load, whether it be an AVR or add on amp don't you loose something? umm..does the headroom run out faster with a 4 Ohm load? read somewhere that #1 amp can run hotter at reference levels? can't remember exactly, but It is one of the reasons a add on amp could be needed among all the obvious reason, room size, difficult demanding speakers to drive..ect. I added a amp well cause I am addicted to the Dynamics that a add on amp offers at reference volume level..
You thinking of this article? http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/impedance-selector-switch-1
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Except slew rate is not as impressive as it's super low THD+N and super high SNR.
I would take an amp with a higher slew rate and acceptable distortion measurements, over an amp with lower slew rates and ultra low distortion any day.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I would take an amp with a higher slew rate and acceptable distortion measurements, over an amp with lower slew rates and ultra low distortion any day.
Me too, if the slew rate is in fact too low for comfort. The 16 V per microsecond of the AHB2 is, as RichB pointed out, still very good with 100 kHz bandwidth for the rated 100 W. My only little concern is that it may not be great for speakers that have high impedance peaks well above 8 ohms especially if that happens in the higher frequencies. In that case it may not perform so perfectly if pushed near the rated output on transient peaks.:D

Edit: I meant to say HF, not LF.
 
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TechHDS

Audioholic General
Even though I don't fully understand the technical or fully understand how to read and compare specs on amps, yet ;). Yes there are some specs that I do understand and comprehend well, like : THD, SNR, the difference between a monoblock and symmetrical design amps..ect..But I am following you ole timers real close!:D. 'lovinthehd', give me a link to a very good article that Gene, posted back in 2015. Once I've had more time to study and read the article properly I won't be making a bad or sad:D purchase again on a, amp or avr Avr AVR:D ever again!. No, but really this is why I joined up on Audioholics Forum. Before long I will be able to separate the Pretenders from the Contenders on who's advice, tips and who really knows what they are talking about or who are just smoke and mirrors. :D
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Just out of curiosity, does slew rate even matter so long as an amplifier can achieve at least 50khz flat?

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