Next Step: Receiver/Amp or Integrated?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you want to listen to music, why do you have a receiver? A good integrated will do what you want without all that needless garbage in the box.

If I wanted to listen to music and started from scratch, I would buy the $1,000 Denon X-3300 AVR on sale for $600 brand new.

I would not buy a $600 integrated amp.

 

[Bucknekked]

Tower speakers will only work if you have the room for it. If you don't, you don't need more wattage than you have. And if your room isn't big enough for floorstanding speakers, you will regret buying them for the rest of your life.

js
There are a number of myths in audio. Floor standing speakers require more room than bookshelf is one of them. I have a dedicated listening room. That's the good news. Its small (10x10x10) that's the bad news.
Most people would think bookshelf sized speakers because "floor standing speakers need more room".
My old set was bookshelf, a set of Klipsch.

When I wanted an upgrade to my system I did the AH forum thing and solicited opinions and gathered up my candidates. Salk audio was at the top of the list. I called Jim Salk and asked him about my small listening space and which of his speakers would do the best job. He recommended the Salk Songtowers. They are big girls and that wasn't what I thought Jim would say.

Long story short: they sound glorious in my dedicated little cave. They dominate the room. They kick my ass every time I listen to them. Myth busted.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, as long as the towers physically fit in the room with all the furnitures and electronics, I don't see any problems with having towers.

I don't know if these towers would fit in a 10 x 10 room, though.

 

[Bucknekked]

Yeah, as long as the towers physically fit in the room with all the furnitures and electronics, I don't see any problems with having towers.

I don't know if these towers would fit in a 10 x 10 room, though.

I like it when a man thinks big !

 

[lsiberian]

My room is tiny and I have towers. Just get the best speakers for your budget. If I were to buy speakers they'd be the Salk Songtowers or the Philharmonic 3s

 

[mtrot]

Gene measured 4.5 Vrms unclipped on every channel of the x5200w. It should be able to drive your Krell to it's rated output unless the rated output is really high.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x5200w/measurements

Ah, okay, I looked at that review. No expert here, but it seems to have excellent performance for an AVR. Maybe that's why it sounds so good to me.

 

[Soner]

For anyone that is wondering, the Yamaha RX-v779 pre-out output level is 1V. Who would have thunk it was in the manual, huh?

 

[lovinthehd]

For anyone that is wondering, the Yamaha RX-v779 pre-out output level is 1V. Who would have thunk it was in the manual, huh?

That's a nominal rating with no particular definition...not all that helpful in the larger picture. It is however lower than that stated in my Denon manuals of 1.2V, whereas my Onkyo manual indicates a rated output of .2V with a max output of 4.6V.....fwiw.

 

[Soner]

That's a nominal rating with no particular definition.

Would you be able to explain what this means? I'm still growing in my understanding. Thank you!

 

[PENG]

Would you be able to explain what this means? I'm still growing in my understanding. Thank you!

I am not sure anyone know for sure what nominal means when used in an audio amplifier. According to the Cambridge Dictionary, it can mean different things but really doesn't mean much.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/nominal

Aside from that, the Yamaha owner's manual does not use the word nominal at all. It simply stated:

1 V/1.2 kOhm.

Page 145:

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/1/436251/RX-V779_RX-V679_om_UCRABGLFH_En.pdf

That means you get 1 V if the impedance of the load, in this case the input impedance of the power amplifier, is 1.2 kOhm. I guess Yamaha picked that number probably because it only takes about 1 V to drive the internal amps of the unit to it's rated output, that is a mere 95 W, not hard to get there at all.

We all know the input impedance of a power amp is typically much higher than 1.2 kOhm, so theoretically, even if the input impedance of your power amp is on the low side, say only 24 kOhm, the pre out voltage could be as high as 1 X 24/1.2 = 20 V. We all know that is not going to happen, but it is reasonable to expect the Yamaha could output much higher than 1 V in real world applications. That is, when driving a power amp that has much higher input impedance than 1.2 kOhm.

Based on several of Gene's bench test results over the years, my guess is that the RX-V preout should be comparable to that of the RX-A860 (recently tested by Gene). It wasn't great at all, but good enough for power amps that has reasonably high sensitivity, say at least 28 dB, and rated <200W. For amps rated for >200W and/or have lower sensitivity, those entry level RX-V/RX-A receivers should be avoided.

 

[lovinthehd]

Would you be able to explain what this means? I'm still growing in my understanding. Thank you!

A specification generally has some qualifications. Like saying an amp is 100wpc....but 100w for what impedance and what frequency response and what level of distortion? In terms of the pre-out voltage it certainly isn't a constant of 1V, but what is it's range under what conditions? There have been units measured at much higher potential output than their stated value in the manuals....in the case of the Yamaha just what is that maximum without clipping?

 

[PENG]

For anyone that is wondering, the Yamaha RX-v779 pre-out output level is 1V. Who would have thunk it was in the manual, huh?

Of course the specs were in the owner's manual and I am sure many of us do know that they were typically stated at between 1 and 1.2 V. That is usually the case for the Yamaha, Denon, Marantz models. We just chose to ignore their numbers and in many cases wouldn't bother mentioning them because they way they specified the pre out voltage, rendered them practically useless.

D&M's actually looked worse because they simply said "Rated output 1.2V", but they typically performed very well on the bench so not much to worry about there. The higher Yamaha models such as the RX-A2060/3060 do provide a little more information in the manuals, but still lack details. Based on that little bit more information, I am comfortable to guess that their pre out voltage would likely be more in line with those offered by D&M's.

 

[Soner]

As found by several of Gene's bench test over the years, my guess is that the RX-V preout should be comparable to that of the RX-A860 recently tested by Gene. It wasn't great at all, but good enough for power amps that has reasonable high sensitivity, say at least 28 dB, and rated <200W. For amps rated for >200W and/or have lower sensitivity, those entry level RX-V/RX-A receivers should be avoided.

Given that information, do you suspect this amp should be compatible?

https://www.amazon.com/Crown-XLS1002-Two-channel-Power-Amplifier/dp/B011TI97VE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1514592539&sr=8-1&keywords=crown+xls1002

PS: I have read input sensitivity measured in V and in dB. How do these measurements relate, if at all?

 

[PENG]

Given that information, do you suspect this amp should be compatible?

https://www.amazon.com/Crown-XLS1002-Two-channel-Power-Amplifier/dp/B011TI97VE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1514592539&sr=8-1&keywords=crown+xls1002

You can say that they are compatible but as mentioned more than once previously, the entry level Yamaha AVR's pre outs may not be that great, so AH's review on the RX-A860 that is comparable to your RX-V779 should probably apply. Did you read the review?

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a860/measurements

In that review, Gene commented that:

"Yamaha RX-A860 Preamplifier Measurements
In the past some Yamaha AV receivers had weak output drivers in their preamp outputs where they didn't supply enough voltage to hit the magic 2Vrms, which is what most power amplifiers need to achieve full rated power. Sadly, it looks like Yamaha has taken a step backwards with the RX-A860. At 1.9Vrms output, the receiver shut down. When I checked at a slightly lower output (1.6Vrms), I noticed a pretty nasty FFT distortion profile. There simply is NO excuse for this in a day and age when opamps are cheap and supply voltage is plentiful.

At 1Vrms, the output looks much cleaner. If you're planning on using external amplification with the RX-A860, look for a power amplifier with a relatively high voltage gain (29dB or greater) so that it can achieve full rated power below where the preamp outputs of the RX-A860 starts clipping. For example, a 200-watt amplifier with a voltage gain of 29dB will reach its rated power at around 1.4Vrms."

The XLS1002 can be set to the higher sensitivity setting of 0.776 V, but then if you do that, the SN ratio would drop 6 dB. The relatively low SN of 97 dB for the 1.4 V setting wasn't that good to begin with, so you may want to bite the bullet and get the XLS 1502 that has higher SN ratio.

PS: I have read input sensitivity measured in V and in dB. How do these measurements relate, if at all?

I don't know where you read about input sensitivity measured in dB. For audio amplifiers, sensitivity should be measured in V, not dB. May be you were confused with "gain", that could be measured in dB, %, or multiples.

You seem interested in understanding the relationship between voltage gain and input sensitivity so you really should read the article linked below. As usual, Steve Muntz did an excellent job explaining the topic accurately, yet in such a way that it is easy to understand.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-voltage-gain

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yeah, as long as the towers physically fit in the room with all the furnitures and electronics, I don't see any problems with having towers.

I don't know if these towers would fit in a 10 x 10 room, though.

Is that a photoshopped image? Is it just a work of art or do they actually speak? LOL

 

[KEW]

You can say that they are compatible but as mentioned more than once previously, the entry level Yamaha AVR's pre outs may not be that great, so AH's review on the RX-A860 that is comparable to your RX-V779 should probably apply. Did you read the review?

I think Soner is really just wanting to know whether the Crown offered the gain structure to work with his 779.
I'm not sure I understand correctly, but assuming his is equivalent to the A860 and given that the Crown has variable input sensitivity, would not the Crown accommodate the Yamaha's output? Or am I oversimplifying?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is that a photoshopped image? Is it just a work of art or do they actually speak? LOL

Not sure. Got the image from Google search.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Not sure. Got the image from Google search.

Looking at the craftsmanship again, beautiful except for the raw speaker ring showing. They could have made a very nice molding, press fit to cover the screw holes and ring. Now that would have added real class.

 

[PENG]

I think Soner is really just wanting to know whether the Crown offered the gain structure to work with his 779.
I'm not sure I understand correctly, but assuming his is equivalent to the A860 and given that the Crown has variable input sensitivity, would not the Crown accommodate the Yamaha's output? Or am I oversimplifying?

I know, and I said it could be considered "compatible", in terms of the preout voltage of the AVR and the input sensitivity of the Crown. The reason why I cited Gene's comments was so he is aware that just being "compatible" in that regard may not be good enough for him, due to the not so good SN ratio especially if he needs to (that depends..) set the sensitivity of the XLS 1002 to .775 V. The XLS 1502 does not have that issue, but costs more.

 

[KEW]

I know, and I said it could be considered "compatible", in terms of the preout voltage of the AVR and the input sensitivity of the Crown. The reason why I cited Gene's comments was so he is aware that just being "compatible" in that regard may not be good enough for him, due to the not so good SN ratio especially if he needs to (that depends..) set the sensitivity of the XLS 1002 to .775 V. The XLS 1502 does not have that issue, but costs more.

Thanks PENG!

Soner, I think it is as good as you can reasonably expect the published info to indicate.

If I were in your shoes, I would give it a go; making sure to order from someone with a easy return policy. Amazon Prime is probably the easiest for many of us, but your local Guitar Center, etc. is likely to have them in-stock.

You want to listen for hiss between songs when you are listening as loud as you would ever expect to. If you get hiss, go with the 1502 which should eliminate it (or just go with the 1502 up front if your budget allows).

Good luck and let us know how it goes!