Trouble with Bowers and Wilkins 804 D3

[Turk]

I’m having trouble with the lower 2 woofers rattling on my b&w 804 D3. I already replaced my first pair that I had for about 2 months and now this pair is doing the same thing after only 1 month. Does anyone have any idea on what could be causing this issue? My equipment is a 11.2 set up used mainly for movies but I also listen to music often. I have a furman reference 20i power conditioner, marantz 8012, but run my main 5 speakers off of a rotel rmb-1585. I do like to listen to my movies pretty loud, volume setting at about 80-83 out of about 98 max. I would think that these speakers could Handel this amount of volume but maybe I’m wrong. I have owned motion 40 and definitive technology towers in the past and I have never had this issue before. The second time around I even kept the crossover at 60-80hz trying to keep most of the bass on the subwoofers but this didn’t help. Has anyone ever heard of this or have any suggestions on how to correct this so it won’t happen a 3rd time?

 

[shadyJ]

You haven't described the problem very well. Rattling might not be caused by loud volumes. You might have knocked the coils off center, although too hard use will do that. If you are overdriving, your equipment, you need something that can handle a wider dynamic range, period. Raising the subwoofer crossover might help a little. The B&W 800s aren't meant for monster SPLs.

 

[everettT]

What Subs are you using? With two I'd look at 100/110hz crossover. As Shady mentioned that version of the 800 series isn't a spl "monster" and there isn't a lot of info to go on. Did you buy them from an authorized dealer? What country are you located in?

Also did you bi wire the speakers?

 

[Turk]

I guess the best way to describe the problem is I hear distortion coming from the lower to woofers of the speakers. You can gentility push on the woofer and you can hear and feel it rubbing on something like a metal to metal rubbing feel.

Do you think in your opinion that 80 out of 100 or so is over driving the equipment? The amp is 200w with the 804 d3 speakers being a 200w speaker.

I thought imop that the b&w would be able to play at higher levels than my old martin Logan motion 40 speakers. Also why would none of the other speakers have any issues? The cheapest ones I have are speakercraft AIM8 FIVE Series 2
In ceiling that are played just as loud and are 1/8 or less the price

Also I’m relatively new to this so what do you mean by needing something with a wider dynamic range?

 

[Turk]

What Subs are you using? With two I'd look at 100/110hz crossover. As Shady mentioned that version of the 800 series isn't a spl "monster" and there isn't a lot of info to go on. Did you buy them from an authorized dealer? What country are you located in?

Also did you bi wire the speakers?

I am using 1 martin Logan grotto i I believe it’s a 10” and 1 SVS ultra 16” sub
I bought everything from an authorized dealer “magnolia A/V” part of Bestbuy. I live in the U.S. and right now they are not bi wired but I do have some audioquest rocket 88 bi wire cables on order. I had been kicking around the idea of bi amping them but didn’t know if this would help or make it worse.

 

[shadyJ]

I guess the best way to describe the problem is I hear distortion coming from the lower to woofers of the speakers. You can gentility push on the woofer and you can hear and feel it rubbing on something like a metal to metal rubbing feel.

Do you think in your opinion that 80 out of 100 or so is over driving the equipment? The amp is 200w with the 804 d3 speakers being a 200w speaker.

I thought imop that the b&w would be able to play at higher levels than my old martin Logan motion 40 speakers. Also why would none of the other speakers have any issues? The cheapest ones I have are speakercraft AIM8 FIVE Series 2
In ceiling that are played just as loud and are 1/8 or less the price

Also I’m relatively new to this so what do you mean by needing something with a wider dynamic range?

Yeah, the woofer has been knocked out of alignment. They have been overdriven. You need some new woofers. But really, you need speakers that can handle the kind of abuse you are throwing at them. The 804s can't handle the kind of use you are dishing out.

Wattage isn't the issue here. The woofers have been throttled too hard at low frequencies, and it doesn't take kilowatts to do that. Just too much energy in low frequencies. "80 out of 100" doesn't mean anything, since that signal level is entirely relative. The only certain thing is that is too much for the woofers. They might be able to cope better with a higher crossover point to the sub.

The speakercraft and ML speakers could have been spared due to stricter filters or different setup.

By wider dynamic range, I mean you need something that is able to play loud and low frequencies with greater capability than your B&Ws. Klispch just came out with the RF-7 IIIs, you might give those a look. Or give these Pi 4 speakers a look. Either one will be far more powerful than your B&Ws. Your ears will break before they do. They should both have very good fidelity as well.

 

[shadyJ]

I am using 1 martin Logan grotto i I believe it’s a 10” and 1 SVS ultra 16” sub
I bought everything from an authorized dealer “magnolia A/V” part of Bestbuy. I live in the U.S. and right now they are not bi wired but I do have some audioquest rocket 88 bi wire cables on order. I had been kicking around the idea of bi amping them but didn’t know if this would help or make it worse.

I would not mix the Grotto and SVS sub. The SVS sub will be a lot more powerful. Use the SVS sub and get rid of the Grotto, you generally do not want to mix subwoofers with very different dynamic range abilities.

Cancel your Audioquest bi wire cable order. That isn't going to help you. If anything, Bi-amping will make it worse.

 

[gene]

Turk;

You're a candidate for a speaker system like this:
https://rbhsound.com/svt.php

 

[TLS Guy]

Your speakers only have two 6.5 inch woofers in each speaker.

I would doubt that many if any of those speakers have a manufacturing defect. I suspect as shady asserts that you are just plain over driving them. This is causing either thermal damage to the voice coil, or the travel is excessive and the voice coil former is leaving the pole piece gap and suffering mechanical damage. Either way the result is gap rub. So the likely issue is that you are playing them too loud.

However there may be a problem with your amp driving those speakers. The minimum impedance of the speakers is 3 ohms. So the 8 ohm spec, of the speakers is meaningless. Now this low impedance areas are generally were power demands are greatest. The best crude rule of thumb is to rate a speakers true impedance at the minimal impedance + 10%. That would make your speaker 3.3 ohms which is almost certainly nearer the mark than the 8 ohm rating.

Now your Rotel amp is rated for an absolute minimum of 4 ohm speakers. So it is possible that the amp is misbehaving driving those speakers, and there is the possibility of DC offset resulting and causing the damage. So with the volumes you are using and the load the speakers present the amp may be clipping and or having a DC off set problem.

Either way turning the volume down considerably will solve the problem for you.

Lastly I'm highly suspicious of power conditioners. I have found these sort of devices to actually make the power worse and seriously upset and damage equipment.

I looked at the specs and all they do is throw out largely meaningless garbage pseudo scientific terms. At the end of the day the spec. sheet informs that the unit does not even provide voltage regulation, which would be a basic function of a power conditioner. When all is said and done that unit just seems to be a ridiculously expensive surge protector. That is really the only hard spec. The rest of the rap sheet is gibberish.

 

[Turk]

Your speakers only have two 6.5 inch woofers in each speaker.

I would doubt that many if any of those speakers have a manufacturing defect. I suspect as shady asserts that you are just plain over driving them. This is causing either thermal damage to the voice coil, or the travel is excessive and the voice coil former is leaving the pole piece gap and suffering mechanical damage. Either way the result is gap rub. So the likely issue is that you are playing them too loud.

However there may be a problem with your amp driving those speakers. The minimum impedance of the speakers is 3 ohms. So the 8 ohm spec, of the speakers is meaningless. Now this low impedance areas are generally were power demands are greatest. The best crude rule of thumb is to rate a speakers true impedance at the minimal impedance + 10%. That would make your speaker 3.3 ohms which is almost certainly nearer the mark than the 8 ohm rating.

Now your Rotel amp is rated for an absolute minimum of 4 ohm speakers. So it is possible that the amp is misbehaving driving those speakers, and there is the possibility of DC offset resulting and causing the damage. So with the volumes you are using and the load the speakers present the amp may be clipping and or having a DC off set problem.

Either way turning the volume down considerably will solve the problem for you.

Lastly I'm highly suspicious of power conditioners. I have found these sort of devices to actually make the power worse and seriously upset and damage equipment.

I looked at the specs and all they do is throw out largely meaningless garbage pseudo scientific terms. At the end of the day the spec. sheet informs that the unit does not even provide voltage regulation, which would be a basic function of a power conditioner. When all is said and done that unit just seems to be a ridiculously expensive surge protector. That is really the only hard spec. The rest of the rap sheet is gibberish.

I guess I may have to look at a different speaker that can keep up with what I like to watch. My music listening I know never has damaged them it’s been in a movie both times. Last time was during transformers last knight.

I was thinking that clipping might be an issue. I was hoping that a speaker and amp from the same parent company would have worked well together. They even had it wired this way in the show room.

I was suspicious of power conditioners at first as well. I’m fortunate were I was able to get it for 1/5 the price New. I played with it listening to music and when it was in the system it was a real noticeable difference. I’m not the best at describeing things but the best I can do is say it opened everything up and noticed more space in between the instruments. Either way if u have the ability to play around with one I would recommend it.

 

[PENG]

I agree with Shady and TLS Guy. To summarize, you pushed your system too hard because:

1. The speakers are not designed for the kind of spl you need. This is an educated guess only, without knowing your room dimensions, amount of acoustic damping, sitting distance, and to certain extent the media contents you have been mainly listening to (types of movies, music etc.).

If you don't want to provide the into, you can use the online calculator linked below and let us know the results. It won't be very accurate but should be good enough to help troubleshooting.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

2. The RMB1585 has relatively low input sensitivity, 1.9V RCA, 3.8V XLR. The Marantz could therefore be clipping during certain peaks in the media contents you listened to. That would of course result in the Rotel clipping as well.

3. It is hard to know for sure without knowing whether you ran Audyssey and have it on all the time, and the level settings after running Audyssey, but it seems very likely that you are listening at or exceeded "reference" level from your main mic position. For Marantz, the volume scale is 0-98 or -79.5 to +18, so 80 is about "0", and if you had ran Audyssey correctly, that would represent "reference" level (THX standard) at your mic position, and that would likely be too loud for most people.

Note: When you get the speakers fixed, at least temporarily, you may be safer to just drive the speakers with the Marantz SR8012, for most movies and 2 channel jazz/classical music and only use the Rotel for compressed music listening. Do make sure the Marantz SR8012 is kept cool, with an external fan if necessary. Obviously it will help a lot if you can turn the volume down a little, instead of 80-83, try 73 to 76, or if you drive them directly with the SR8012, you could try 75 to 77 but do check for temperature.

If you like those speakers, and they are really nice sounding ones, then you may want to consider changing the crossover settings to 80 Hz, preferably 90 Hz, sell the RMB 1585 and get a 3 channel amp such as the Halo A31, or Anthem MCA 225 that has higher input sensitivity. Note: setting the crossover point higher than 80 Hz should help, but not very much because the speaker's impedance hoovers around 3 to 4 ohms between 80 and 200 Hz. Phase angle looks good, and the Rotel amp can take the heat anyway, it is just the impedance we have to be careful with.

 

[everettT]

I am using 1 martin Logan grotto i I believe it’s a 10” and 1 SVS ultra 16” sub
I bought everything from an authorized dealer “magnolia A/V” part of Bestbuy. I live in the U.S. and right now they are not bi wired but I do have some audioquest rocket 88 bi wire cables on order. I had been kicking around the idea of bi amping them but didn’t know if this would help or make it worse.

The reason I asked about biwire was to make sure that if you had, that the jumpers were removed as that would cause damage. As mentioned biwire is a waste of time and money with inaudible benefits.

If your significant other isn't opposed to you getting the speakers you want, I'd look at JTR speakers and Seaton Sound . Both are great for high dynamic range music and home theater.

 

[TLS Guy]

I guess I may have to look at a different speaker that can keep up with what I like to watch. My music listening I know never has damaged them it’s been in a movie both times. Last time was during transformers last knight.

I was thinking that clipping might be an issue. I was hoping that a speaker and amp from the same parent company would have worked well together. They even had it wired this way in the show room.

I was suspicious of power conditioners at first as well. I’m fortunate were I was able to get it for 1/5 the price New. I played with it listening to music and when it was in the system it was a real noticeable difference. I’m not the best at describeing things but the best I can do is say it opened everything up and noticed more space in between the instruments. Either way if u have the ability to play around with one I would recommend it.

You should have bought the B & W 800 D3 speakers. They would do what you want. They can handle a lot of power.

To do what you are doing requires bigger woofers, with large motor systems.

You are showing listener/dollar bias with that power conditioner. You can not affect what comes out of your speakers by changing the AC line. You can prevent damage yes, sound no. The power supplies of all amps etc, already filter the power line, because of the power supply caps and other components of the power supply. I know the journalist audiophool community think you can, but that is bunk, total bunk. There are much cheaper units than that the offer much better and more comprehensive protection than that unit. The spec. page of that unit is almost all drivel, with terms used that are straight out of the back of the marketer's neck and from an engineering standpoint totally meaningless. Don't fall for that sort of nonsense and put your dollars where it counts.

 

[Turk]

I agree with Shady and TLS Guy. To summarize, you pushed your system too hard because:

1. The speakers are not designed for the kind of spl you need. This is an educated guess only, without knowing your room dimensions, amount of acoustic damping, sitting distance, and to certain extent the media contents you have been mainly listening to (types of movies, music etc.).

If you don't want to provide the into, you can use the online calculator linked below and let us know the results. It won't be very accurate but should be good enough to help troubleshooting.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

2. The RMB1585 has relatively low input sensitivity, 1.9V RCA, 3.8V XLR. The Marantz could therefore be clipping during certain peaks in the media contents you listened to. That would of course result in the Rotel clipping as well.

3. It is hard to know for sure without knowing whether you ran Audyssey and have it on all the time, and the level settings after running Audyssey, but it seems very likely that you are listening at or exceeded "reference" level from your main mic position. For Marantz, the volume scale is 0-98 or -79.5 to +18, so 80 is about "0", and if you had ran Audyssey correctly, that would represent "reference" level (THX standard) at your mic position, and that would likely be too loud for most people.

Note: When you get the speakers fixed, at least temporarily, you may be safer to just drive the speakers with the Marantz SR8012, for most movies and 2 channel jazz/classical music and only use the Rotel for compressed music listening. Do make sure the Marantz SR8012 is kept cool, with an external fan if necessary. Obviously it will help a lot if you can turn the volume down a little, instead of 80-83, try 73 to 76, or if you drive them directly with the SR8012, you could try 75 to 77 but do check for temperature.

If you like those speakers, and they are really nice sounding ones, then you may want to consider changing the crossover settings to 80 Hz, preferably 90 Hz, sell the RMB 1585 and get a 3 channel amp such as the Halo A31, or Anthem MCA 225 that has higher input sensitivity. Note: setting the crossover point higher than 80 Hz should help, but not very much because the speaker's impedance hoovers around 3 to 4 ohms between 80 and 200 Hz. Phase angle looks good, and the Rotel amp can take the heat anyway, it is just the impedance we have to be careful with.

That’s what I got from the website you suggested. Unfortunately I don’t have a dedicated room and it is all open to kitchen dining area with 9’ ceilings. Also not able to do much with treatments other than thick curtains over the windows.

90% of movies I watch are 4K Blu-ray and music is mainly tidial or Spotify

I did run the audyssey and always have it on.

I try to keep it as cool as I can I have it in a closed cabnit but prop the doors open a little and I have 4 fans in there. 2 going out 1 going in and 1 blowing across. But it still can get a little warm at times

 

[Turk]

The reason I asked about biwire was to make sure that if you had, that the jumpers were removed as that would cause damage. As mentioned biwire is a waste of time and money with inaudible benefits.

If your significant other isn't opposed to you getting the speakers you want, I'd look at JTR speakers and Seaton Sound . Both are great for high dynamic range music and home theater.

Unfortunately as far as home theaters go her and I couldn’t be farther apart. She is more than happy with just tv speakers. So I have to find something that works with her because it’s in our main living room

 

[Turk]

You should have bought the B & W 800 D3 speakers. They would do what you want. They can handle a lot of power.

To do what you are doing requires bigger woofers, with large motor systems.

You are showing listener/dollar bias with that power conditioner. You can not affect what comes out of your speakers by changing the AC line. You can prevent damage yes, sound no. The power supplies of all amps etc, already filter the power line, because of the power supply caps and other components of the power supply. I know the journalist audiophool community think you can, but that is bunk, total bunk. There are much cheaper units than that the offer much better and more comprehensive protection than that unit. The spec. page of that unit is almost all drivel, with terms used that are straight out of the back of the marketer's neck and from an engineering standpoint totally meaningless. Don't fall for that sort of nonsense and put your dollars where it counts.

Unfortunately 30,000 for the pair is a little outside my budget. I also have a 1.5 year old running around so I do need something that has some sort of grill on it for the minor amount of protection it may give. I don’t believe the 800’s come with grills but I could be wrong.

 

[Turk]

I am also kind of limited on which speakers I can get because I am able to get discounts on some but not others. Has anyone ever heard the kef r900 speaker and have any idea if this may work for me? Or maybe Elac FS 249.3

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Turk;

You're a candidate for a speaker system like this:
https://rbhsound.com/svt.php

I second that.

He's definitely a candidate for the towers of powers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You should have bought the B & W 800 D3 speakers.

I don't know about spending $30K for speakers with those very brittle Diamond tweeters that are known to break with high SPL.

Definitely wouldn't take a chance with $30K.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am also kind of limited on which speakers I can get because I am able to get discounts on some but not others. Has anyone ever heard the kef r900 speaker and have any idea if this may work for me? Or maybe Elac FS 249.3

Too bad you missed out on the huge RBH sales during Thanksgiving. They were selling those SX-T1 speakers for like $600 each. Might check during Christmas sale.