Feeling the need to buy....but what exactly?

[Tom Bodet]

We recently moved and my receiver didn't make it. I've also been itching for a little more screen so a frantic trip over to BB got me a 55" Vizio and a Denon ARWX-2400H.

Now I'm itching to fix my speaker setup. I've never had a surround setup, just LCR. Existing equipment is a pair of (keep the jokes to a minimum plz) Bose 401s I bought in high school and an awful JBL center that I don't even recall what it is; small MTM something.

Budget: highly variable. Most likely doing this over time unless a package is worth the expenditure. Would love a new set of mains for 1600ish, then a pair of surrounds, a center and sub for roughly 500 each (each not total together).

The room is the living room and it's awful. 20X14 and we're positioned front to back is along the 14' axis. Gas fireplace on the left and about 3/4 of the back wall is open to the kitchen or hallway so no real spot to put rears. I figure I could hang surrounds on the far walls, not sure I'd do stands as that puts one right next to the FP vs being above it at least.

Mostly TV/movie watching, some music, some games. We don't listen loud. I prefer the wide soundstage the Bose offer...not much else. Love clarity and being able to pick out texture over thump and wow.

Reading here has opened me up to all kinds of options. For some examples of things I've seen...
I really like the look of RBH impression series but only 1 dealer 100m away and don't like having to cover the return shipping. The Aperion Verus II Grands are also very pretty although a little higher than our price but..who knows.

A couple years ago I had tried this and sat with some Paradigm towers I fell for. Think they were Prestige but don't recall that far back.

They will be seen and would like them to have a look about them the wife will appreciate while making me smile the whole damn time.

So....?
Thanks

 

[everettT]

Budget is everything FWIW.

 

[Swerd]

A new pair of front left & right speakers for $1600 and a center for $500 puts you close enough to a price range with plenty of good choices.

Just a thought, keep the Bose 401 speakers for now and use them as surround speakers. They might be fine in that role, if they physically fit where you want to place them. I looked them up and they're short towers, about 30" tall. As rear channel speakers, they might do better if they are on short (about 12" high) stands.

If you end up keeping the 401s as rear channel speakers, you'd save roughly $500. You might consider putting that into better front speakers such as Salk SongTowers or Philharmonic Audio BMR Philharmonitors .

 

[shadyJ]

RBH Impression series have been discontinued. Aperion is a solid brand.

If it were me, I would start with a couple good bookshelf speakers and a good subwoofer rather than tower speakers. There are lots of good brands out there. Look at Revel, Ascend Acoustics, Hsu Research, SVS, RBH, to name just a few.

 

[Tom Bodet]

A new pair of front left & right speakers for $1600 and a center for $500 puts you close enough to a price range with plenty of good choices.

Just a thought, keep the Bose 401 speakers for now and use them as surround speakers. They might be fine in that role, if they physically fit where you want to place them. I looked them up and they're short towers, about 30" tall. As rear channel speakers, they might do better if they are on short (about 12" high) stands.

If you end up keeping the 401s as rear channel speakers, you'd save roughly $500. You might consider putting that into better front speakers such as Salk SongTowers or Philharmonic Audio BMR Philharmonitors .

Yeah they are short. When I told the wife heights of things I was looking at she pulled a tape measure out and got all wtf. She's been looking at these for 15 years. Not sure if they would work out floor position wise unless I put them on the back "wall." There their height would sit below the counter line....eh. Regardless I think pushing the budget and holding off on surrounds would be an option.

 

[Tom Bodet]

RBH Impression series have been discontinued. Aperion is a solid brand.

If it were me, I would start with a couple good bookshelf speakers and a good subwoofer rather than tower speakers. There are lots of good brands out there. Look at Revel, Ascend Acoustics, Hsu Research, SVS, RBH, to name just a few.

I'm not saying you're wrong; but I have this impression that towers are what I want.

And dammit on the impressions.

 

[zieglj01]

I'm not saying you're wrong; but I have this impression that towers are what I want.

I have been down the Bose route -- yes, time to go down a different road

Look at this Canton Package -- and they make some nice stuff for the price
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/cantbundle11/canton-gle-5-piece-speaker-package-zebra-wood/1.html

 

[shadyJ]

I'm not saying you're wrong; but I have this impression that towers are what I want.

And dammit on the impressions.

If you want tower speakers for the looks, OK. But if you think there will be a serious difference in sound, you would be mistaken. A pair of tower speakers with a mediocre subwoofer will not sound as good as a pair of bookshelf speakers with a good subwoofer. If it were me, I would get two good subs and two good bookshelf speakers. If you want, you can essentially turn them into tower speakers by using the subwoofers as bookshelf speaker stands.

Here is a decent system of that type: use two of these subwoofers as stands for two of these speakers. Another suggestion: use two of these subs as stands for two of these speakers. Or a couple of these subs with either this or this speaker. Or mix and match any of those subs and speakers. All high performance, high bang-for-your-buck products.

 

[Tom Bodet]

If you want tower speakers for the looks, OK. But if you think there will be a serious difference in sound, you would be mistaken. A pair of tower speakers with a mediocre subwoofer will not sound as good as a pair of bookshelf speakers with a good subwoofer. If it were me, I would get two good subs and two good bookshelf speakers. If you want, you can essentially turn them into tower speakers by using the subwoofers as bookshelf speaker stands.

Here is a decent system of that type: use two of these subwoofers as stands for two of these speakers. Another suggestion: use two of these subs as stands for two of these speakers. Or a couple of these subs with either this or this speaker. Or mix and match any of those subs and speakers. All high performance, high bang-for-your-buck products.

I'm fully aware I'm at no price point for towers that reach as good as a sub. I figured a sub was in order and indeed have it in the rough budget above.

I've not come across a sub as a stand before. I'd think you would have vibration issues and how do you deal with them?

 

[shadyJ]

I'm fully aware I'm at no price point for towers that reach as good as a sub. I figured a sub was in order and indeed have it in the rough budget above.

I've not come across a sub as a stand before. I'd think you would have vibration issues and how do you deal with them?

A good sub has a solidly built cabinet that has a relatively inert enclosure, however, to prevent scuffing the subwoofer top, and also to prevent movement of the speaker from rocking motion, I would use some rubber shelf liner like this stuff. Cut off a chunk and place the speakers on it.

By the way, many tower speakers are basically just wide range speakers placed on top of subwoofers anyway: a midwoofer/tweeter enclosure placed on top of a couple bass drivers, like so:

So you can have towers that have lows that can match subwoofers: all you have to do is use subs as speaker stands! Same thing as many tower speaker designs.

Also consider by buying a sub with some tower speakers, you are just throwing away a good chunk of money because much of what you pay for in buying a tower speaker over a bookshelf speaker is simply lower bass extension. You will not be using that extension advantage if you incorporate a sub though, since you will likely be crossing over the system at 80 Hz. Any of the bookshelf speakers I linked to can play down to 80 Hz just fine. So basically all you are paying for in tower speakers is a built-in speaker stand when you use subs in that same system.

But an advantage of using multiple subs, especially when used as speaker strands is that you can use them at higher frequencies than 80 Hz without localization penalties. Most systems use a 80 Hz crossover frequency from sub to speaker because above 80 Hz, the sub draws audible attention to its position, and throw the soundstage in one direction. It doesn't sound good. Below 80 Hz, it is hard to tell where sound is coming from. But that isn't a problem with subs as speaker stands, you can use much higher crossover frequencies and the sound can remain natural and balanced. What is nice about that is you can take advantage of the subwoofer's much higher dynamic range in that frequency band. From 80 Hz to 100, 120, or 160 Hz, it can punch way harder than your speakers, whether they are bookshelf or tower. It also takes a load off your AVR amplifier. The sub's amplifier can handle that extra range just fine, a lot easier than your AVR amp.

 

[Tom Bodet]

A good sub has a solidly built cabinet that has a relatively inert enclosure, however, to prevent scuffing the subwoofer top, and also to prevent movement of the speaker from rocking motion, I would use some rubber shelf liner like this stuff. Cut off a chunk and place the speakers on it.



But an advantage of using multiple subs, especially when used as speaker strands is that you can use them at higher frequencies than 80 Hz without localization penalties. Most systems use a 80 Hz crossover frequency from sub to speaker because above 80 Hz, the sub draws audible attention to its position, and throw the soundstage in one direction. It doesn't sound good. Below 80 Hz, it is hard to tell where sound is coming from. But that isn't a problem with subs as speaker stands, you can use much higher crossover frequencies and the sound can remain natural and balanced. What is nice about that is you can take advantage of the subwoofer's much higher dynamic range in that frequency band. From 80 Hz to 100, 120, or 160 Hz, it can punch way harder than your speakers, whether they are bookshelf or tower. It also takes a load off your AVR amplifier. The sub's amplifier can handle that extra range just fine, a lot easier than your AVR amp.

This is exactly why Ilike this place. Ty for explaining.

 

[KEW]

If you want tower speakers for the looks, OK. But if you think there will be a serious difference in sound, you would be mistaken. A pair of tower speakers with a mediocre subwoofer will not sound as good as a pair of bookshelf speakers with a good subwoofer. If it were me, I would get two good subs and two good bookshelf speakers. If you want, you can essentially turn them into tower speakers by using the subwoofers as bookshelf speaker stands.

Here is a decent system of that type: use two of these subwoofers as stands for two of these speakers. Another suggestion: use two of these subs as stands for two of these speakers. Or a couple of these subs with either this or this speaker. Or mix and match any of those subs and speakers. All high performance, high bang-for-your-buck products.

I agree completely with your general sentiment; however, for his budget (and especially if he is just buying 2 speakers for now), I would like to see better BS speakers recommended.
As nice as a pair of good subs are, our ears are much more sensitive to the mids and even highs.
What would your recommendations be for higher performing speakers in the $800 to 1400/pr range?

 

[shadyJ]

I agree completely with your general sentiment; however, for his budget (and especially if he is just buying 2 speakers for now), I would like to see better BS speakers recommended.
As nice as a pair of good subs are, our ears are much more sensitive to the mids and even highs.
What would your recommendations be for higher performing speakers in the $800 to 1400/pr range?

I think for a lot of people, some laws of diminishing returns returns set in after you get a roughly flat response and decent off-axis response. Can you do better, yes, but is it a night and day difference, no. For me, I would take a pair of these decent $300 to $400 pair speakers and some good subs over some $1k per pair speaker and a mediocre sub any day of the week.

For bookshelf speakers in the 800 to 1400 range, I would look at Revel Concerto2 M16, Ascend Sierra, anything from Philharmonic, KEF, Hsu CCB-8, SVS Ultras, anything from RBH in that range. Of course, there are plenty of other competent manufacturers in that range. But if you aren't doing critical listening, I don't think its worth spending double or triple the price for an extremely flat response vs a pretty good response, at least when the budget is tight.

 

[KEW]

I think for a lot of people, some laws of diminishing returns returns set in after you get a roughly flat response and decent off-axis response. Can you do better, yes, but is it a night and day difference, no. For me, I would take a pair of these decent $300 to $400 pair speakers and some good subs over some $1k per pair speaker and a mediocre sub any day of the week.

For bookshelf speakers in the 800 to 1400 range, I would look at Revel Concerto2 M16, Ascend Sierra, anything from Philharmonic, KEF, Hsu CCB-8, SVS Ultras, anything from RBH in that range. Of course, there are plenty of other competent manufacturers in that range. But if you aren't doing critical listening, I don't think its worth spending double or triple the price for an extremely flat response vs a pretty good response, at least when the budget is tight.

My point is, at least as I read it, Tom's budget is not that tight!

Budget: highly variable. Most likely doing this over time unless a package is worth the expenditure. Would love a new set of mains for 1600ish, then a pair of surrounds, a center and sub for roughly 500 each (each not total together).

I interpret this as $1600 (mains) + $500 (surrounds) + $500 (center) +$500 (sub) = $3100 (total)
Is that what you meant, Tom?

The subs you recommended are $1000 to $1100, so that leaves $2000 for the speakers which could break down to 3 X $500 for something like SVS Ultras across the front and $500 for the surrounds.

To me, aside from a flat FR, the detail of a good midrange and the ability of the tweeter to capture the upper harmonics of chimes (for example) are things I notice when they are missing, and I think his budget can accommodate getting that along with capable subs!

 

[shadyJ]

My point is, at least as I read it, Tom's budget is not that tight!



I interpret this as $1600 (mains) + $500 (surrounds) + $500 (center) +$500 (sub) = $3100 (total)
Is that what you meant, Tom?

The subs you recommended are $1000 to $1100, so that leaves $2000 for the speakers which could break down to 3 X $500 for something like SVS Ultras across the front and $500 for the surrounds.

To me, aside from a flat FR, the detail of a good midrange and the ability of the tweeter to capture the upper harmonics of chimes (for example) are things I notice when they are missing, and I think his budget can accommodate getting that along with capable subs!

I took him to mean he only had 1600 initially and only wanted to spend it on the front stage. I gave him suggestions that would get him a very good front stage right away, and no need for a sub later.

 

[Tom Bodet]

I took him to mean he only had 1600 initially and only wanted to spend it on the front stage. I gave him suggestions that would get him a very good front stage right away, and no need for a sub later.

You're both correct. I gave some rough numbers to give a round budget area. If there was no incentive to go full kit now then maybe make the first buy front stage only and maybe push the budget a little if better could be squeezed out. Later add a sub and surrounds. Flip side is take aperion with 30% off a big order, get the verus II towers, center and 12d sub for just shy of 3k.

I'm flexible. Trying to get down to a shop this weekend for some listening.

ETA: I think I'm much more interested in imaging than flat although do tend to be more irritated by highs that aren't smooth. e.g. When Sony came out with some new studio cans mid 90s everyone loved them, I thoght they were brittle.

 

[rojo]

You're both correct. I gave some rough numbers to give a round budget area. If there was no incentive to go full kit now then maybe make the first buy front stage only and maybe push the budget a little if better could be squeezed out. Later add a sub and surrounds. Flip side is take aperion with 30% off a big order, get the verus II towers, center and 12d sub for just shy of 3k.

I'm flexible. Trying to get down to a shop this weekend for some listening.

ETA: I think I'm much more interested in imaging than flat although do tend to be more irritated by highs that aren't smooth. e.g. When Sony came out with some new studio cans mid 90s everyone loved them, I thoght they were brittle.

Are you the Tom Bodet who leaves all the lights on at Motel 6?

 

[Tom Bodet]

Are you the Tom Bodet who leaves all the lights on at Motel 6?

You get a cookie.

 

[rojo]

You get a cookie.

Yay! My browser is set to accept cookies. But not oatmeal raisin. Raisins ruin everything.

Do you ever feel guilty that your careless illumination habits could possibly be the largest single contributor to climate change?

Anyway, just throwing out a couple more suggestions to consider. Emotiva Airmotiv bundle. Or you could assemble kits from DIY Sound Group. If you could re-purpose your existing Bose speakers or go budget for your surrounds, Salk Songbirds + Song Center would get you the highest sound quality in towers within a reasonable margin of error of your budget. If you need smaller wall-mountable surrounds, get these or possibly these.

For subs, I agree with shadyJ about the Hsu Research subs.

 

[Tom Bodet]

The Salks are nice. I'm a bit hesitant with companies where I'm incurring shipping. In the long run I'm horribly cheap. I'll need to get some points of reference/comparison before pulling the trigger there.

Maybe I'm also taking some of what shady's saying and put more towards sub and go bookshelf. Did I mention I'm indecisive? That's mostly the reason I never bought the Paradigms a few years back. Call it old man syndrome or "I got this here, it still works."

I do fancy myself handy and looked at DIY previously. Those you did look great but I think wifey needs a little style and the number of unfinished projects in the shop (including parts of the shop) is getting out of hand.

I see you have those AVBP2s (or did). I don't know what to make of Fluance. Almost seems too cheap to be good.