Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[3db]

Julian Hirsch lives !!!!!!!!!!

Thats a good thing?

 

[Mikado463]

Thats a good thing?

it's a good 'laugh' !

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Ok getting right to the point.. Wilson speakers are wayyyyyyy over priced for what they produce in sound. So if Wilson puts out tripe like this, why should any one take him seriously about being subjectively qualified to pick something out that sounds good to my ears? The term subjective is just this, subjective. No one hears or interprets music like I do nor can I interpret or hear like you or anyone else. So what makes him think that others are qualified to do so? That comes across as shear arrogance, nothing more.

I have never, not once, mentioned Wilson loudspeakers on this or any other forum prior to your off topic, straw man argument in this thread. If you are unaware of David Wilson's credentials in the recording and production space, which precedes his entry into the audio market, and to which my quote refers, perhaps you should check them out.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Not true...
The sonic performance output of an amplifier is How well the amplifier's output stage matches the demands put on it by the loudspeaker load. The biggest component variable in the signal chain is the loudspeaker..
This depends on the electrical design of the loudspeaker, choice of drivers, driver materials and x-over design.

For example, 1 loudspeaker like a Klipsch RF7 (8 ohms, 100 dB sensitivity) is EZ to drive due to its high sensitivity, higher impedance and horn tweeter. But take a Revel product such as the Salon 2 (4 ohms, 86 dB sensitivity) with its inverted dome tweeter, its complex x-over puts heavier demands on the amplifier's output stage and power supply.

If an amplifier is driving the Klipsch loudspeaker its power demands are much easier to handle than the Revel so quite likely fewer negative audio byproducts will be audible... Therefore the load and driver & x-over specs of the loudspeaker on the amplifier's output stage is what separates the sonic performance from 1 amplifier to another. The easier the loudspeaker load is to the amplifier is, the more similar the sound of between the comparable set up amplifiers will be. When a loudspeaker/load is too complex for the amplifier to handle this is when this is when significant negative byproducts become audible. Thats why when in investing significant $ into an elaborate audio, it is pertinent to confirm the amplifier is capable of driving the target loudspeaker.

Note that when selecting an amplifier, crucial specs such as its topology, headroom, slew rate, IM distortion, power supply reserve are very important.. To dig into these deeper, we should start another thread.

Just my $0.02..

So what if the loudspeaker happened to have a solid, wide frequency impedance of 8 ohms, and both amplifiers were designed to produce full output into an 8 ohm load. Then would they all sound the same, in your opinion?

I'm not trying to bait you, I just want to know, yes or no, where you stand. Nothing sinister ... I'm not going to attack you for your opinion (unlike some here). I just want to know what it is.

 

[3db]

So what if the loudspeaker happened to have a solid, wide frequency impedance of 8 ohms, and both amplifiers were designed to produce full output into an 8 ohm load. Then would they all sound the same, in your opinion?

I'm not trying to bait you, I just want to know, yes or no, where you stand. Nothing sinister ... I'm not going to attack you for your opinion (unlike some here). I just want to know what it is.

I'm not attacking your opinion.. just Wilsons. If you took the time to read my other posts, you would see that I'm in actual agreement with your non baited statement. Its a fair question which I would answer yes to. IHO they would sound the same as long as both amps were designed to drive the load in question and are well within their power delivery envelope. Tube amps are a different story.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

I'm not attacking your opinion.. just Wilsons. If you took the time to read my other posts, you would see that I'm in actual agreement with your non baited statement. Its a fair question which I would answer yes to. IHO they would sound the same as long as both amps were designed to drive the load in question and are well within their power delivery envelope. Tube amps are a different story.

The question is posed to M Code.

 

[Mikado463]

3db, do you have an opinion on Magico speakers ?

 

[3db]

3db, do you have an opinion on Magico speakers ?

Why do you ask?

 

[M Code]

So what if the loudspeaker happened to have a solid, wide frequency impedance of 8 ohms, and both amplifiers were designed to produce full output into an 8 ohm load. Then would they all sound the same, in your opinion?

I'm not trying to bait you, I just want to know, yes or no, where you stand. Nothing sinister ... I'm not going to attack you for your opinion (unlike some here). I just want to know what it is.

Hmmm..
As I posted previously the higher the sensitivity of a loudspeaker such as the Klipsch the less demands on the amplifier's output stage... So here I would agree if comparable amplifiers are not under stress, struggling to deliver enough voltage/current into impdance loads of 8 ohms that there should be less differences between amplifiers..
However that is not the real world...
Many, many audiophile, higher cost, higher resolution, full-range loudspeakers put significant demands on an amplifier's output stage. Typically loudspeakers having an impedance <4 Ohms and sensitivity of <87dB, put significant current demands on the amplifier and power supply to deliver enough current before the protection circuits begin to activate. Lab measurements of amplifiers for output power are done into load resistors, but again the loudspeaker is not a resistor..

Keep in mind, the differences are more audible in lower cost amplifiers, AVRs, loudspeakers which are built to a specific tighter budget as they have made certain compromises for internal component because of cost. Higher end amplifiers, AVRs, loudspeakers have more budget space so they have fewer performance trade-offs.

Just my $0.02..

 

[Dave Blount]

Why do you ask?

curiosity has got the better of me......... you dislike Wilson so I was wondering what your opinion was of one of it's nearest rivals .......

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Hmmm..
As I posted previously the higher the sensitivity of a loudspeaker such as the Klipsch the less demands on the amplifier's output stage... So here I would agree if comparable amplifiers are not under stress, struggling to deliver enough voltage/current into impdance loads of 8 ohms that there should be less differences between amplifiers..
However that is not the real world...
Many, many audiophile, higher cost, higher resolution, full-range loudspeakers put significant demands on an amplifier's output stage. Typically loudspeakers having an impedance <4 Ohms and sensitivity of <87dB, put significant current demands on the amplifier and power supply to deliver enough current before the protection circuits begin to activate. Lab measurements of amplifiers for output power are done into load resistors, but again the loudspeaker is not a resistor..

Keep in mind, the differences are more audible in lower cost amplifiers, AVRs, loudspeakers which are built to a specific tighter budget as they have made certain compromises for internal component because of cost. Higher end amplifiers, AVRs, loudspeakers have more budget space so they have fewer performance trade-offs.

Just my $0.02..

So I take it, then, the answer is Yes?

 

[PENG]

However that is not the real world...
Many, many audiophile, higher cost, higher resolution, full-range loudspeakers put significant demands on an amplifier's output stage. Typically loudspeakers having an impedance <4 Ohms and sensitivity of <87dB, put significant current demands on the amplifier and power supply to deliver enough current before the protection circuits begin to activate. Lab measurements of amplifiers for output power are done into load resistors, but again the loudspeaker is not a resistor..

True, but let's be reminded that in many home audio systems the average mid range AVRs would be cruising at <5 to 10W most of time during movies or less during music listening. It is the occasional peaks that typically cause such mid range or even entry level AVRs to operate outside of their comfort zone. How likely for that to happen would depend a lot on the room dimensions/size and whether the owner listens to spl close to or even exceed reference level.

Also, for the few that really need the power, simply going with an integrated amp or power amp capable of 200 WPC ore less may not cut it either, because as we all know, to gain just 3 dB of high quality spl sound, one needs to get double the power. Those people could do well with pro-amps such as the Crown audio XLS 1502, 2502 etc.

Keep in mind, the differences are more audible in lower cost amplifiers, AVRs, loudspeakers which are built to a specific tighter budget as they have made certain compromises for internal component because of cost. Higher end amplifiers, AVRs, loudspeakers have more budget space so they have fewer performance trade-offs.

Just my $0.02..

I fully agree, that's why I keep saying this poll is not very meaningful because the question is too general, such that the answer has to be a "YES". Why 29% voted "No" is beyond me, it should have been "0" % No vote, if voted to the wording of the poll question.

I guess the poll result would have been a lot different if the question is stated in a touch more specific and qualified manner, such as:

Can you hear a difference in Sound between "well designed" Audio Amplifiers that are operating "within their limits"?

then the predicted result (by me only, at least for now) would likely have been more even, or reversed.

 

[3db]

True, but let's be reminded that in many home audio systems the average mid range AVRs would be cruising at <5 to 10W most of time during movies or less during music listening. It is the occasional peaks that typically cause such mid range or even entry level AVRs to operate outside of their comfort zone. How likely for that to happen would depend a lot on the room dimensions/size and whether the owner listens to spl close to or even exceed reference level.

Also, for the few that really need the power, simply going with an integrated amp or power amp capable of 200 WPC ore less may not cut it either, because as we all know, to gain just 3 dB of high quality spl sound, one needs to get double the power. Those people could do well with pro-amps such as the Crown audio XLS 1502, 2502 etc.



I fully agree, that's why I keep saying this poll is not very meaningful because the question is too general, such that the answer has to be a "YES". Why 29% voted "No" is beyond me, it should have been "0" % No vote, if voted to the wording of the poll question.

I guess the poll result would have been a lot different if the question is stated in a touch more specific and qualified manner, such as:

Can you hear a difference in Sound between "well designed" Audio Amplifiers that are operating "within their limits"?

then the predicted result (by me only, at least for now) would likely have been more even, or reversed.

You know my stance on this PENG . I have always put conditions around my response thar are in line with yours.

 

[M Code]

So I take it, then, the answer is Yes?

Answer is a maybe.. Sometimes..

 

[PENG]

Answer is a maybe.. Sometimes..

You are a lawyer right?

 

[PENG]

You know my stance on this PENG . I have always put conditions around my response thar are in line with yours.

I know, but it is hard to know how many of the 40 no voters did what you did.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Can you hear a difference in Sound between "well designed" Audio Amplifiers that are operating "within their limits"?

The answer would still be "YES" 60% and "NO" 40% depending on the population.

It doesn't matter even if you provided extensive double-blind studies consisting of 20,000 randomized subjects worldwide that prove amps don't have a "sound signature" of their own, those 60% would still vote "YES all amps sound different".

It all depends on the population you ask.

If you ask the population who were taught double-blind studies or subscribe to double-blind studies and especially the population who participate in the administration of double-blind studies on a regular basis and you provide them with well-controlled and documented double-blind amp studies, I bet you 100% of them would say that amps don't have a sound signature of their own, especially after they listen to the amps with the same exact volume.

 

[3db]

I know, but it is hard to know how many of the 40 no voters did what you did.

Hey Peng.. During my university years before the on set of high frequency loss in my hearing, I engaged in a blind listening tests using the same set speakers in the same room level matched between amps and I could not discern differences among the top tier amps. Only when the amps were pushed did I hear the differences when blind folded. Its amazing how many senses get involved in sighted listening tests. The setup I remember consisted of a Bryston, Krell, and Yamaha power amps driving a pair of Mirage SM-3 that were utterly amazing. The source was an Oracle Delphi turntable outfitted with a Dyna Vector cartridge. I cant remember the pre-amp involved. This experiment really opened by eyes and ears to the importance of controlled listening tests where output levels are matched, all amps operating well within their limits and removing sight bias.

When I switched from my technics AVR to my present day Yamaha, the difference in sound between the two AVRs became apparent during extremely loud settings where I started to reach the limits of the Technics sooner than the limits of the Yamaha. Only when I pushed the Yamaha did I hear similar compression that I experienced earlier on with the Technics.

As an EE, I have seen no measureable measurements that would indicate differences in sound between amps that are equally capable of powering the same load and well within their design limits. I suspect the difference in sound comes down to sight bias. To think human hearing is more sensitive than measuring equipment is ludicrous considering it takes 3db in signal strength (10x times the signal strength in linear terms to be able to detect a 2x difference in loudness. Building an amp is based on engineering principles and laws, not pixie dust. I dont understand why there are so many beleivers in pixie dust in this day and age. We might as well burn all women at the stake who are better in business than their male counterparts for they truly must be witches. Ok Enough ranting for me. Have a good one.

 

[PENG]

The answer would still be "YES" 60% and "NO" 40% depending on the population.

It doesn't matter even if you provided extensive double-blind studies consisting of 20,000 randomized subjects worldwide that prove amps don't have a "sound signature" of their own, those 60% would still vote "YES all amps sound different".

It all depends on the population you ask.

If you ask the population who were taught double-blind studies or subscribe to double-blind studies and especially the population who participate in the administration of double-blind studies on a regular basis and you provide them with well-controlled and documented double-blind amp studies, I bet you 100% of them would say that amps don't have a sound signature of their own, especially after they listen to the amps with the same exact volume.

I know, but you might have misunderstood me because I didn't say it right. My point was simply that the way the poll question was stated, it should have been 100% Yes, not just 60%.

 

[3db]

I know, but you might have misunderstood me because I didn't say it right. My point was simply that the way the poll question was stated, it should have been 100% Yes, not just 60%.

Yep.