Denon AVR 4311ci

[TLS Guy]

The X3000s are $1,000 AVR, not cheap disposable utility items. They are currently on sale for $600. But they cost $1,000 when not on sale.

Are you claiming your external amps and Marantz pre-pro sound better than the Denon amps in these $1,000 AVR?

The goal of any audio system is great sound. Unless you are claiming that your pre-pros and amps sound better than these $1,000 AVR, I don’t see why you would consider these $1,000 AVRs cheap disposable utility items.

I have owned and heard enough of these $1,000 Denon AVRs and high-end separates to know that they don't sound significantly better than one another, especially in Direct mode.

I don't consider anything that sound comparable to high-end separates as cheap disposable utility items.

Absolutely I'm claiming that the Quad 909 amps driving my system will be audibly superior to the maps in a $1000 receiver. These amps just have an incredibly neutral and relaxed sound especially when the going gets tough.

 

[lovinthehd]

Absolutely I'm claiming that the Quad 909 amps driving my system will be audibly superior to the maps in a $1000 receiver. These amps just have an incredibly neutral and relaxed sound especially when the going gets tough.

They're also simply more powerful amps in that scenario. Not really a fair comparison. Now add in the cost of your amps....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Absolutely I'm claiming that the Quad 909 amps driving my system will be audibly superior to the maps in a $1000 receiver. These amps just have an incredibly neutral and relaxed sound especially when the going gets tough.

Fair enough regarding the amp section.

HD already beat me to it.

The key is "my system". We don't know your system like you do. So, of course, the Denon X3000 may not be able to power "your system" as well as other more powerful amps.

It would be a different story if we know that your speakers are easily powered (sensitivity 92dB/w/m, 8 ohms, typical 18Wx20Lx10H room).

But what about your Marantz pre-pro vs the Denon X3000's preamp section? We know about the Marantz pre-pro.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, there is another current guy posting about a Sony's sub outs apparently not working which may have been something that happened during a recent move.

So it was confirmed that his subs are actually working?

 

[equate]

Absolutely I'm claiming that the Quad 909 amps driving my system will be audibly superior to the maps in a $1000 receiver. These amps just have an incredibly neutral and relaxed sound especially when the going gets tough.

But through daily, weekly, monthly and yearly sighted listening evaluations with your components, you really don't know if this is an accurate statement regarding your Quad amps or not. I'm willing to bet it's not. Cognitive bias is powerful stuff. It affects us all.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think it's nearly impossible to dissuade guys who believe separates sound better than AVRs.

 

[TLS Guy]

But through daily, weekly, monthly and yearly sighted listening evaluations with your components, you really don't know if this is an accurate statement regarding your Quad amps or not. I'm willing to bet it's not. Cognitive bias is powerful stuff. It affects us all.

Well the issue is moot, as you could not power my system with a receiver. It would be impossible. In any event I'm not going to do all that R & D and build time, to say nothing about the expense an power it with cheap amps with inadequate head sinks just for one problem.

 

[equate]

Well the issue is moot, as you could not power my system with a receiver. It would be impossible. In any event I'm not going to do all that R & D and build time, to say nothing about the expense an power it with cheap amps with inadequate head sinks just for one problem.
My System: http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424008_RKGvb#127077317_Pufg7

Well, if you feel you need audio separates, look at the Crown XLS DriveCore 2 Series.
Light weight, easy on the power bill, small form factor, inexpensive, nice to look at and still very powerful. Sell the Quad.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, if you feel you need audio separates, look at the Crown XLS DriveCore 2 Series.
Light weight, easy on the power bill, small form factor, inexpensive, nice to look at and still very powerful. Sell the Quad.

Oh, but the Quads will just sound better even if these efficient cool-operating Crown amps can output 775 Watts into 4 ohms and 1200 watts into 2 ohms.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, if you feel you need audio separates, look at the Crown XLS DriveCore 2 Series.
Light weight, easy on the power bill, small form factor, inexpensive, nice to look at and still very powerful. Sell the Quad.

These babies are not going anywhere.

A 3.5 KW power block. I would not swap them for cheap switching amps. These amps are highly reliable, with an exceedingly elegant design and very low part count. I'm sticking to these amps I have voiced all my speaker designs with.

Ideally speakers and amps should be designed as a unit.

These are.

 

[equate]

Despite your audiophile army command center, science still wins. In a proper volume level-matched double blind listening test, the chances of you or me hearing a difference between your equipment and a placebo is null.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I’m not sure I would be willing to replace my $8K 4.5KW ATI Power Block either.

But I would have no reservations about using a $3K 7.5KW Crown Power Block either.

 

[Shek5150]

Thanks to eveyone who replied to my question; I've been traveling . .. so, haven't had a chance to read thse . . . but I will & I'll try any suggestions offered . ..

p.s., I can say this, I do know that the subs work because they're work w/ an older Yamaha that I have . . . Side Note: one of my Ultra SVS SB-13s had a fried amp & once I replaced it . .. everythign was back in working order . .. I guess my fear is that what ever 'little spark' chose to fry my sub amp . . .traveled up into the Denon to say "Hello" and it wasn't welcomed . . . anyway, sorry again for my tardy reply & I will get thru reaing all your suggestions . . .thanks again.

 

[Shek5150]

Have you tested the sub? If not connect a CD player or any other known good source to the sub input and see if you get sound out of the sub.

If the sub works then the problem is the receiver.

If it is the receiver go to your manual and do one hard reset back to factory default settings and reset up your receiver. If that does not work then yes, the receiver does need replacement or repair.

Unfortunately five to seven years is often the life of receivers.

Now the tech may be right or wrong. It could be that the output socket for the sub has come off the board, especially if a heavy cable has been hanging from it. Sometimes if you are skillful you can repair this type of problem.

Any other type of problem is likely to require a new board. These days boards are just about impossible to service because of robot mounted surface components.

The next issue is that these days the manufacturers do not release service manuals and or circuits to anyone who is not a company certified repair center. Without that finding the problem is impossible.

The next issue is that finding the part even for the repair center may not be possible.

Finding spare parts is a problem across the industry right now. Denon/Marantz have sold their parts business to Encompass, who seem not the stock parts. Why I don't know.

Anyhow I would contact Denon for their nearest certified repair center and contact them.

The tech is right in one way, the cost of repair may well exceed the cost of the depreciated value of a five year old receiver. If not exceeding it, will be close.

Finally, if you do have to replace this receiver, do not get another receiver. These days receivers have too much crammed into one box, especially processing and power amps.

I personally have never liked the idea of receivers and don't use them and won't.

I strongly recommend a pre/pro and external amps. Reliability is likely to be much better that route. I note pre/pros on the second hand market hold their value much better then receivers. Overtime if you go that route you will be money ahead.

I note the my 10 year old pre/pro is fetching 2/3 of its original price on eBay at the moment.

As I’ve said, I own Denon that are 10 YR old and still working. The 15-16 YR Denon’s I gave my parents and brothers are still working.

There is no reason to spend $3K for pre-pros and Amps when you can get a nice brand new Denon X3300 for $600.

Just stick a $10 120mm USB fan atop the AVR to pull heat out.

And I bet you AVR will still be around 20 YR from now.

Regarding a couple of the suggestions I've come across thus far (my plane is boarding so; i'll make this qick) . . .I did test the subs w/ another reciever (but that was after replacing the amp in one of the subs; it was fried . . . dunno how exactly, may have been during a storm, not really sure). . . Also, I did perform the hard reset . . an lastly, from the day I purchased the Denon, I have a USB fan on it that ran every time I turn the unit on . . well, that's it for now . . going to board the plan . .. thanks again guys.

 

[Shek5150]

Well then I must have missed those post, and in that case perhaps we can come up with a list of possible causes such as:

1. Sub levels cranked too high to begin with, DEQ may up the peaks by another 6 to 12 dB depending on how close the user listens at reference level.
2. Subwoofer developed a fault, in such way that the AVR's protective circuit may not be adequate for?

We do know lots of users prefer to crank the level up after running Audyssey, and then they engage DEQ that is supposed to level off as the volume is cranked towards reference level, but if the user listens at a few dB below reference, I am not sure if DEQ would always taper off correctly. That, on top the boost the user put on the levels, could potential result in over driving the sub out circuitry.

Any other ideas?

Thanks Peng, I'm to old to be cranking anything & I rarely if ever push the limits . . . but I'm thinking that what ever fried my sub, traveled up into my Denon and . . . Grrrrr!!!!!
thanks again

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks Peng, I'm to old to be cranking anything & I rarely if ever push the limits . . . but I'm thinking that what ever fried my sub, traveled up into my Denon and . . . Grrrrr!!!!!
thanks again

If it was a storm that might do it, but unlikely unless just about everything was toast. Outside of a storm it would be next to impossible for the sub amp to fry an input, as there should be a DC blocking cap on the input, unless it is a rogue design.

Here is a class D amp circuit. To blow up the input a large voltage would have to go back though C3. That would really burn out the sub amp board.

 

[PENG]

Thanks Peng, I'm to old to be cranking anything & I rarely if ever push the limits . . . but I'm thinking that what ever fried my sub, traveled up into my Denon and . . . Grrrrr!!!!!
thanks again

That could have been the cause (I agree to disagree with TLSGuy for now). Thank you for the feedback. I guess the options are to use it as a power amp, or in another system that doesn't need subs and then bite the bullet and get something like an AVR-X4300H or X4400H and call it a day for the HT system.

 

[TLS Guy]

That could have been the cause (I agree to disagree with TLSGuy for now). Thank you for the feedback. I guess the options are to use it as a power amp, or in another system that doesn't need subs and then bite the bullet and get something like an AVR-X4300H or X4400H and call it a day for the HT system.

Actually thinking about this, it is more likely to be static discharge from a person. Static discharges are very high voltage with such a sharp spike they easily pass caps. ICs in particular are very vulnerable to static discharge.

This is just one of the reasons I have such a robust ground plane, with all cases really bonded to ground.

 

[PENG]

Actually thinking about this, it is more likely to be static discharge from a person. Static discharges are very high voltage with such a sharp spike they easily pass caps. ICs in particular are very vulnerable to static discharge.

This is just one of the reasons I have such a robust ground plane, with all cases really bonded to ground.

Depending on the nature of the fault developed at the sub, it could have similar but different spikes too, and that's why I wouldn't eliminate that possible cause either.

 

[Shek5150]

Greetings all

. . . at the risk of sounding ungrateful (because I am truly grateful for everyone's input); I'm not sure how my initial post evolved into a discussion of "Receivers -vs- Separates" (which for the most part is beyond my abilities; as I'm perhaps a 'half step-up' above a rookie) . . .

That being said, regarding my situation, I did try all the relevant suggestions (multiple times) & after completing the hard reset for the second time . . . it actually worked & now both my subs are working just fine . . .

So, to all, thanks for your input & please forgive me for expressing my initial sentiments; however, I was already frustrated w/ trying to get my system back online (this occurring after a major move across country & my wife being deployed overseas for the next couple years; anyway, TMI) & the debate between "Receivers -vs- Separates" (though meaningful to others; only added to my frustration).

Thanks again guys.