killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Did your friend not follow the instructions supplied by ProJect when balancing the arm? TLS basically reiterated the instructions in the manual.
He did, we're going through everything again. Double and triple checking.

dozer, curiosity is getting to me, did your buddy figure this out yet ?
It is getting to me as well. It's a slow process of me asking and then channeling it to him (a very busy guy often away from home), and then coming back here for new input. I still haven't heard from him on the last couple of questions.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
wondering the same thing, the middle of the record is the middle of the record regardless of how much music is on it.

Based on the table being level I can only think of 3 things....... cartridge issue(mounting or defective)..least likely

Too light of tracking force

anti-skate not set to correspond with tracking force
It's the middle of the record, but on an LP that is longer (closer to 30 minutes than 15), the distance between the groove center in each rotation is closer and not as deep- Also, the amplitude of the signal needs to be decreased, to prevent what is happening in this example.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Oops!
I misunderstood/misread that!
So yes, a reduction (not increase) in anti-skating should be tested to see if it solves the problem and how much of a reduction is required.
If it repeats, the anti-skate isn't sufficient- the weight hangs at the inside of the tone arm.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Oops!
I misunderstood/misread that!
So yes, a reduction (not increase) in anti-skating should be tested to see if it solves the problem and how much of a reduction is required.
If it repeats, the anti-skate isn't sufficient- the weight hangs at the inside of the tone arm.
Guys, is it possible to reach an agreement here? It's really important to me.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Guys, is it possible to reach an agreement here? It's really important to me.
DOH!

I zoomed in on the photo for their tonearms and at the rear of the pivot, it has a thin rod that is used for the string- have your friend check to see which groove the string is in- if it's closer to the pivot, it won't have as much affect as it would if it's closer to the end (shorter lever arm) and if it is in the one closest to the end, it could cause this problem.

Click on the photo at the right, then zoom in to see the rod and its grooves.

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-SqxwHDYr3pX/p_252DBCDCGW/Pro-Ject-Debut-Carbon-DC-Gloss-White.html?tp=75887#&gid=1&pid=6
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
DOH!

I zoomed in on the photo for their tonearms and at the rear of the pivot, it has a thin rod that is used for the string- have your friend check to see which groove the string is in- if it's closer to the pivot, it won't have as much affect as it would if it's closer to the end (shorter lever arm) and if it is in the one closest to the end, it could cause this problem.

Click on the photo at the right, then zoom in to see the rod and its grooves.

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-SqxwHDYr3pX/p_252DBCDCGW/Pro-Ject-Debut-Carbon-DC-Gloss-White.html?tp=75887#&gid=1&pid=6
Yes, thanks. I know that, but is it less or more anti-skating if it repeats a part of the record? It is in the middle at the moment as it is suppose to be were there no problems. We'll try other settings, I'd just like to know should I go to position 1 or 3? To avoid making it worse.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Guys, is it possible to reach an agreement here? It's really important to me.
I'm not positive, so get confirmation elsewhere. I generally remember skating as being from outside to center, but my reference for that is the cheap Record player I had when I was too young to attempt to dissect what happened.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If it repeats, the anti-skate isn't sufficient- the weight hangs at the inside of the tone arm.
If the arm is being pulled back towards the beginning of the record, the anti-skating force applied is excessive, i.e. set too high (assuming it is not a bearing problem as TLSguy proposed).
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Yes, thanks. I know that, but is it less or more anti-skating if it repeats a part of the record? It is in the middle at the moment as it is suppose to be were there no problems. We'll try other settings, I'd just like to know should I go to position 1 or 3? To avoid making it worse.
if the record repeats and 'if' you suspect the anti-skating to be the issue then you have applied too much of it, therefore move the monofilament loop closer to the pivot point of the tonearm.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Yes, thanks. I know that, but is it less or more anti-skating if it repeats a part of the record? It is in the middle at the moment as it is suppose to be were there no problems. We'll try other settings, I'd just like to know should I go to position 1 or 3? To avoid making it worse.
Experiment. Note where it is now as you know what it will do. Change it to less and see how it reacts. If it helps, that is what is needed. If it doesn't, change it to more. One or the other should have a positive effect.
Been a good while since I dabbled and played with a TT. CD is simpler. :D
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Yes, thanks. I know that, but is it less or more anti-skating if it repeats a part of the record? It is in the middle at the moment as it is suppose to be were there no problems. We'll try other settings, I'd just like to know should I go to position 1 or 3? To avoid making it worse.
There should be no skipping even if antiskating is completely removed.

The key is to set the tracking force and overhang correctly. If that is done and it skips, whether or not antiskaing is connected or not, then that turntable is a dud and needs replacing.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Download and print a gauge and insure the cartridge is correctly set up & aligned.

Buy an inexpensive electronic scale (1/10 gram or less resolution) and refer to the cartridge's specifications for tracking force. There is no need to buy one sold for turntable use; they are all the same, essentially. $10 on eBay is fine.

Set the tracking force at least to the middle of the recommended range, and preferably higher. There is no danger of "wearing out records" with a high-ish tracking force, despite what most people assume. You want a tracking force that allows perfect playback under all conditions and with all LPs. Do not be afraid to use the highest recommended force ... it is, after all, recommended.

When a cartridge mis-tracks (most likely towards the inner grooves) due to insufficient tracking force, it violently oscillates in the groove. This causes permanent (and instant) damage to the LP and is the major cause of LP wear, not a reasonably high tracking force.

Be sure there is not something interfering with the un-encombered travel of the tonearm at record playing stylus height. Typical culprit here would be a tonearm lift arm (near the fulcrum, or pivot point of the tonearm, usually) that does not go to rest or is bent. Correct that problem if it exists.

Carefully remove the stylus (if it's removable) or install / move the stylus guard to a safe position, and check the free movement of the tonearm across the traversed area of the turntable platter.

Insure that the dust cover is not interfering with the rear of the tonearm as it traverses the record. Generally speaking you can play records with the dust cover up without issue; on some turntables the dust cover can create a chamber that causes feedback (on others it's OK to use it in the down position) but there is no real need to play records with the cover in place. Use it when the table is not in use.

I doubt that anti-skating is the problem, if it is there is something wrong with how it's configured. Try playing the record with no anti-skating and see what happens. It should work fine in that condition. There are those that consider anti-skating compensation to be completely unnecessary; there is also many cases where the anti-skating force is incorrect. Try using a lighter anti-skating force. Definitely too much anti-skating is not recommended.

With a hanging weight anti-skating mechanism, you adjust the anti-skating force by bending the rod that holds the weight.

The anti-skating compensation should definitely never move the tonearm toward either the spindle or the outside of the platter. It should allow the tonearm to stay in whatever position across the arc of it's travel without moving it in either direction, or only very slightly and slowly toward the outside of the platter (when the tonearm lift is not used, and the stylus is safely protected as per above). You could remove the platter for these tests if you like.

A note regarding LP length:
In order to encode the lowest frequency response in an LP groove, for most non-synthesized bass instruments, the total time per side must be limited to roughly 18 minutes maximum. A recording of deep bass (eg Bach Pipe Organ) would be less, perhaps 16 minutes or if a large pipe organ, which can go to 16 Hz, perhaps 14 minutes.

Any LP longer than that play time per side has been equalized in mastering to limit Low Frequency information. The maximum acceptable playback time for an LP containing music is about 24 minutes; with limited bass information. Voice-only records can be longer.
 
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killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Thank you all. Unfortunately, the problem is starting to be very peculiar. I did get in contact with my friend and he said he already experimented with different down-force and anti-skating.
There should be no skipping even if antiskating is completely removed.

The key is to set the tracking force and overhang correctly. If that is done and it skips, whether or not antiskaing is connected or not, then that turntable is a dud and needs replacing.
It is the overhang that I didn't get to and wasn't really comfortable meddling with. I dl'ed the overhang gauge and I saw the calculator on vinylengine, I just don't know how adjust overhang.

My intuition tells me that in order to adjust overhang there should be some "sliding" portion of the tone-arm mount, like this:
upload_2017-11-7_12-20-11.jpeg


(This is just an example), so the arm can travel forward and backward to increase and decrease overhang. I just don't see anything like this on friend's TT.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
If the arm is being pulled back towards the beginning of the record, the anti-skating force applied is excessive, i.e. set too high (assuming it is not a bearing problem as TLSguy proposed).
Didn't see my next post, eh? I realized the error of my ways and posted 'DOH!'.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Thank you all. Unfortunately, the problem is starting to be very peculiar. I did get in contact with my friend and he said he already experimented with different down-force and anti-skating.

It is the overhang that I didn't get to and wasn't really comfortable meddling with. I dl'ed the overhang gauge and I saw the calculator on vinylengine, I just don't know how adjust overhang.

My intuition tells me that in order to adjust overhang there should be some "sliding" portion of the tone-arm mount, like this:
View attachment 22828

(This is just an example), so the arm can travel forward and backward to increase and decrease overhang. I just don't see anything like this on friend's TT.
On most turntables, the overhang is adjusted at the end of the tonearm. In your photo, it shows a tonearm that can be mounted on a wide variety of bases (plinths) and that's not really for the fine adjustments. If you look at the end of hte tonearm, it has slots for the cartridge screws- if it's pushed back as far as possible, it won't be correct, but I really don't remember seeing turntables fail to track most LPs due to improper overhang- the tracking error causes more distortion, but it didn't cause skipping.

Did your friend buy this turntable from a local dealer?
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
On most turntables, the overhang is adjusted at the end of the tonearm. In your photo, it shows a tonearm that can be mounted on a wide variety of bases (plinths) and that's not really for the fine adjustments. If you look at the end of hte tonearm, it has slots for the cartridge screws- if it's pushed back as far as possible, it won't be correct, but I really don't remember seeing turntables fail to track most LPs due to improper overhang- the tracking error causes more distortion, but it didn't cause skipping.

Did your friend buy this turntable from a local dealer?
Don't take this personally, but if TLS said overhang counts there must be a reason. He's not known to send you on a wild goose chase. Neither are you, of course, but perhaps the guy saw some overhang related skipping.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Don't take this personally, but if TLS said overhang counts there must be a reason. He's not known to send you on a wild goose chase. Neither are you, of course, but perhaps the guy saw some overhang related skipping.
How dare you? Why, I never....! :D

I'm not saying it doesn't matter, but I haven't seen it cause skipping that couldn't be stopped. I have seen a few cartridges that weren't aligned at the end of the tonearm, though- I need to reinstall a ProJect turntable for a customer- I'll see if I can replicate this.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
How dare you? Why, I never....! :D

I'm not saying it doesn't matter, but I haven't seen it cause skipping that couldn't be stopped. I have seen a few cartridges that weren't aligned at the end of the tonearm, though- I need to reinstall a ProJect turntable for a customer- I'll see if I can replicate this.
It is exactly what my friend is considering next; simply to change the cartridge or stylus. The jury's still out on that.

You did answer my question about overhang in the process; it gets adjusted at the end of the tone-arm (end being where you mount the head, right?)
 
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