Stereo Preamp or 2 channel

[killdozzer]

Boat, while I understand the whole 'EQ' thing, first and foremost a properly set up and treated room is the way to go. For if one disregards this and thinks that "EQing' will be the answer they are merely applying a bandaid !

Now granted the application of both can yield great results !

For the sake of chit-chat; I thought it was the other way around. I thought if you allow your system to produce some/any unwanted freq. and than go through the trouble of trapping them that would be a band-aid and the wrong way round.

Isn't the right way to go, to see which freqs will be reinforced by the room modes and then reproduce less of them? If your room adds a lot around, let's say 60Hz, then you attenuate the amount of 60Hz coming out of your speakers.

This would say that traps / treatments would work, but could be avoided.

 

[PENG]

So, just curious as to what makes the separates that much better, or, better at least than a quality AVR in PD mode?

I used to ask the same question and wonder what's the real answer would be. In recent years, I got myself convinced that Placebo effect is the main (obviously not the only..) "what", that makes the separates sound better. Just look at them, and the weight if it is class AB, A type, their much higher prices, and you know they don't cut as many corners, so they must be better designed, spec'ed, tested, subject to higher QA standards, and therefore must sound better.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I used to ask the same question and wonder what's the real answer would be. In recent years, I got myself convinced that Placebo effect is the main (obviously not the only..) "what", that makes the separates sound better. Just look at them, and the weight if it is class AB, A type, their much higher prices, and you know they don't cut as many corners, so they must be better designed, spec'ed, tested, subject to higher QA standards, and therefore must sound better.

That’s easy. I don’t like the way AVRs take up too much space, throw off too much heat, have a myriad of unwanted features I’ll never use for music, usually have numerous cheap connectors I’ll never use in a cramped space, overly complex controls, poor control feel, anywhere from 5-9 wasted amp channels, complex remote controls, too much plastic, and generally lousy ergonomics. Other than all of this I think AVRs are great.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Whose platform are they using?? They don't their own platform so it's a rebadged something.

Both the Denon and McIntosh use Audyssey's EQ system.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have over my years listened to many fine systems driven by receivers, never once has any of them bested what I've heard by the best separates based systems.

After 25 years and $250K later, this is my current impression.

I have NEVER heard AVRs sounding better than "separates" that have Audyssey Dynamic EQ (like McIntosh MX122 w/ Audyssey XT32 Dynamic EQ).

I have heard AVRs sounding better than "separates" that do not have Audyssey Dynamic EQ (like McIntosh MA8000).

In Direct Mode, I have never heard "separates" sounding significantly better than a Denon X3000 or higher series.

My impression: In DIRECT MODE where all EQ and DSP are bypassed, there is no significant difference. The difference is in the EQ.

For me, the salient difference is the Dynamic EQ, not the ROOM EQ itself, which I bypass.

But's that's me. Everyone is different.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Once you accepted the fact (okay my perceived facts) that mid range avr used within their limits actually sound as good as anything else, flipping between them and much more expensive high end gear is interesting, entertaining, satisfying, knowing that you are not only enjoying the music but also able to try and listen for the subtle difference when you are in the mood and have time to kill.

It is a different kind of feeling, than having one but not the other, and have to wonder if you are missing out on something, or just being silly after spending unnecessary money and then bury your head in the sand to avoid being hurt by the truth.

Yeah, even though I know a mid-level Denon AVR can sound fantastic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to own high-end separates.

 

[Mikado463]

That’s easy. I don’t like the way AVRs take up too much space, throw off too much heat, have a myriad of unwanted features I’ll never use for music, usually have numerous cheap connectors I’ll never use in a cramped space, overly complex controls, poor control feel, anywhere from 5-9 wasted amp channels, complex remote controls, too much plastic, and generally lousy ergonomics. Other than all of this I think AVRs are great.

sums it up damn near perfect Irv !

 

[Mikado463]

Yeah, even though I know a mid-level Denon AVR can sound fantastic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to own high-end separates.

you know, I just might take you up on that ........ disconnect my current amps from my Revel Studio II's and substitute my Denon 3300 AVR and listen ............

 

[mtrycrafts]

... there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to own high-end separates.

Absolutely not. I have two amps, one AVR using the amp section only and another using just the preamp/processor.

I just hate to waste good gear or get rid of them. Oh, and those power lights are great too.

 

[PENG]

you know, I just might take you up on that ........ disconnect my current amps from my Revel Studio II's and substitute my Denon 3300 AVR and listen ............

I am not sure if that vintage 3300 can handle the relatively low sensitivity and impedance of the Studio 2 well unless they are in a small room or you listen to <75 dB average from less than 3 meters. I know, lots of restrictions imposed.. Something like the AVR-4308CI would have better chance, but why bother anyway.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Why don't you look at a used Bryson B-60? They can be had for under $1000.

 

[PENG]

Why don't you look at a used Bryson B-60? They can be had for under $1000.

I think he already have some powerful separate pramps/amps. He wants to try what some of us have tried, to use an avr just for fun or whatever, just guessing. It might have been just friendly sarcasm too.

 

[Mikado463]

I think he already have some powerful separate pramps/amps. He wants to try what some of us have tried, to use an avr just for fun or whatever, just guessing. It might have been just friendly sarcasm too.

Gents, my post was one directed to AcuDef regarding middle of the road Denon AVR's (I have one) and how it would compare to my Pass X260.8's driving my Revel Studio 2's. My gut tells me not so good but I just might, for 'chits and giggles', give it try !

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Gents, my post was one directed to AcuDef regarding middle of the road Denon AVR's (I have one) and how it would compare to my Pass X260.8's driving my Revel Studio 2's. My gut tells me not so good but I just might, for 'chits and giggles', give it try !

I've powered the Salon2 with an ATI 60WPC amp. I think I also powered my Salon2 with my old Denon 3312. So I don't think power is an issue for many people.

But I was actually thinking more about the Preamp section (Direct Mode preamp section), not the amp section.

A 260WPC Pass amp would be better suited than an AVR if the speakers require a lot more power.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I've powered the Salon2 with an ATI 60WPC amp.

Me too, in my previous home. That room was somewhat smaller and overloaded quicker than my current room, but it was still obvious the AT602 was engaging soft-clipping on the finale of the Telarc 1812 Overture CD (among others). In a large room the Salon2s are surprisingly power-hungry, IMO because they have the ability to cleanly play very loud.

 

[equate]

I've totally changed my views on hifi components since the 90's when I purchased separates. These days if its not sold in the local $1.00 store, I don't want it or need it.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I've totally changed my views on hifi components since the 90's when I purchased separates. These days if its not sold in the local $1.00 store, I don't want it or need it.

Then why are you here?

 

[equate]

Then why are you here?

Entertainment.

 

[Mikado463]

Entertainment.

wow.......I suppose you like to watch paint dry also !

 

[killdozzer]

Entertainment.

What do you find the most amusing?