Stereo Preamp or 2 channel

M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I've had some real junky integrated amps. Fast forward 30 years and they manage to sound good through better speakers, which started me questioning Chi-fi amps, since their circuit boards are in everything these days. One thing about the old integrated is, all the electronic parts were Japanese. Hmmmm. Back then the problem was because it wasn't domestic components. Turns out the Japanese product amplified pretty darn good, and better speakers just made a better link between it and my ears, never mind it still works 30 years on.

Now I'm using an old Denon AVR for 2 channel, with the benefit of a sub out and bass management? Or, I can bypass all the other stuff via Pure Direct. As far as I can tell, in PD mode, it does not know it is not mono blocks or an integrated and it's up to the speakers, yet again. I don't get where I have really given up anything and I don't watch TV or movies. The amplifier section in some of these AVRs is pretty righteous. I can't even really get it to break a sweat.

Honestly, I would love to have a nice integrated amp. It fits my no video/tv lifestyle and I like the purpose built looks of the damn things, but the darned AVR is showing it's big nuts with everything I have put it thru. Big-fat volume knob, hidden buttons and one dim green light ring around the power switch is all that shows in PD mode, and I'd swear I just have a heavy ass'd integrated amp running my gear. I even vacuum the dust off it and keep it covered when not in use.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Now you know why I have been bragging about my 13 years old Denon after bring it back from the basement and compared it side by side with my much more expensive separates.:D

You can read a few very detailed bench tests on the AVR-3800 and AVR-4308 here (and be amazed by their low impedance capability):

http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/

Now, can anyone link me to any bench test of a <$3000 integrated amp that had better results output at comparable THD+N level than my ex Denon AVR-4308?

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4308ci-av-receiver-measurements



"This graph shows that the AVR-4308CI's left channel, from Multi input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reached 0.1% distortion at 198.6 watts and 1% distortion at 218.9 watts. The distortion level remained at or below 0.002% across all power levels until it reached about 165 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reached 0.1% distortion at 298.0 watts and 1% distortion at 343.4 watts.

With five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads, the receiver reached 0.1% distortion at 144.8 watts and 1% distortion at 173.6 watts. With seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads, it reached 0.1% distortion at 124.5 watts and 1% distortion at 150.3 watts."

So, if you have a 3800 series, crank the volume up and have no worry!

That thing turned out to be more powerful than my Marantz MM8003 that has a 1200 VA toroidal transformer in it. It is almost as powerful (within 1 dB) as my Anthem MCA20 power amp that is driving my L/R in the HT room.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Having bragged about using AVR in two channel system, I must admit guilt for having acquired more fully separate amps and an integrated amp even just recently. I don't drink or anything, so why not..:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm 100% addicted to Dynamic EQ for music. So there is no way I would ever use another analog stereo preamp or integrated amp even if I were a billionaire.

Seriously, if I were a billionaire right now, I would probably get the McIntosh Pre-Pro with Audyssey XT Dynamic EQ and some McIntosh Amps just because they look cool. But I must have Dynamic EQ. :cool:
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Now you know why I have been bragging about my 13 years old Denon after bring it back from the basement and compared it side by side with my much more expensive separates.:D

You can read a few very detailed bench tests on the AVR-3800 and AVR-4308 here (and be amazed by their low impedance capability):

http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/

Now, can anyone link me to any bench test of a <$3000 integrated amp that had better results output at comparable THD+N level than my ex Denon AVR-4308?

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4308ci-av-receiver-measurements



"This graph shows that the AVR-4308CI's left channel, from Multi input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reached 0.1% distortion at 198.6 watts and 1% distortion at 218.9 watts. The distortion level remained at or below 0.002% across all power levels until it reached about 165 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reached 0.1% distortion at 298.0 watts and 1% distortion at 343.4 watts.

With five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads, the receiver reached 0.1% distortion at 144.8 watts and 1% distortion at 173.6 watts. With seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads, it reached 0.1% distortion at 124.5 watts and 1% distortion at 150.3 watts."

So, if you have a 3800 series, crank the volume up and have no worry!

That thing turned out to be more powerful than my Marantz MM8003 that has a 1200 VA toroidal transformer in it. It is almost as powerful (within 1 dB) as my Anthem MCA20 power amp that is driving my L/R in the HT room.
Here U go.. Check out the HK990 test review from Stereophile..
https://www.stereophile.com/content/harman-kardon-hk-990-integrated-amplifier-measurements

Pay special attention to its excellent square wave response..
A great amplifier with the Dr.Toole/Olive Room EQ capability, same as used in the JBL Synthesis products.

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
I am aware of that beast, wonder how much it was at launch time though.
Originally built for Europe, retail was about $2K. Also had a matching CD player. Sales results were mixed, later brought into the USA as a flagship but by that time Harman International had pulled back HK from the consumer HIFI biz..

IMHO..
Its Room EQ s/w was incredible we supported its development along with the Dr.Toole R&D team... :cool:

Just my $0.02.. ;)
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I'm aware of high performance amps too. I value music much more than driving. I'd buy a cheap and reliable used car and a brand new amp before the alternative and still be way ahead and not owe the bank any money. Hanging around here with you folks, I almost did exactly that. Well, I did buy a used truck, but that left me with thousands to spend on audio and I did owe the global economy some input. But once I started seeing what a bunch of you were using for audio, I looked further inside the venerable AVR.

Then a friend gave me a Denon 3805. I had nothing to lose. He seemed to take it kind of for granted. It had been stashed in a closet in it's original box for 5 years or so before I got it. After a few months of listening to it, another just like it came up for sale locally for $75 so I snagged that one too! Then I found a review Audioholics did on it in the way back machine. They seemed pretty impressed by it.

The human ear, as far as I know, has not evolved in the 10+ years or so since these things were developed in which to exceed it's audible capabilities. That's been true for a number of years or decades even. As long as they live close to their stated values, and even if they don't in as many instances.

On the upside, now I am not worried so much if someone breaks in my home. They have to take their chances getting popped over a used, $75 AVR, instead of a $5k amp, and then they have to lug the beasts with them which becomes more like a job and kind of earn it. :D
 
A

Andrein

Senior Audioholic
I guess nobody today has as good hearing he used to have 10years ago. So in theory, bought once a good device it should be even getting better as time is running. Hence not much point to bother much about sound quality improvements. Unless you are missing some specific features.

Just my £0.02
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I guess nobody today has as good hearing he used to have 10years ago. So in theory, bought once a good device it should be even getting better as time is running. Hence not much point to bother much about sound quality improvements. Unless you are missing some specific features.

Just my £0.02
Very true.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm aware of high performance amps too. I value music much more than driving. I'd buy a cheap and reliable used car and a brand new amp before the alternative and still be way ahead and not owe the bank any money. Hanging around here with you folks, I almost did exactly that. Well, I did buy a used truck, but that left me with thousands to spend on audio and I did owe the global economy some input. But once I started seeing what a bunch of you were using for audio, I looked further inside the venerable AVR.

Then a friend gave me a Denon 3805. I had nothing to lose. He seemed to take it kind of for granted. It had been stashed in a closet in it's original box for 5 years or so before I got it. After a few months of listening to it, another just like it came up for sale locally for $75 so I snagged that one too! Then I found a review Audioholics did on it in the way back machine. They seemed pretty impressed by it.

The human ear, as far as I know, has not evolved in the 10+ years or so since these things were developed in which to exceed it's audible capabilities. That's been true for a number of years or decades even. As long as they live close to their stated values, and even if they don't in as many instances.

On the upside, now I am not worried so much if someone breaks in my home. They have to take their chances getting popped over a used, $75 AVR, instead of a $5k amp, and then they have to lug the beasts with them which becomes more like a job and kind of earn it. :D
So you got one for free and a second one of those 1 ohm stable avr for $75? You can pretend they are the cheapest ever pair of integrated monoblocks on earth.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I believe we are doing a pretty good job hijacking this "2Ch-only preamp thread" into "1-ohm-stable AVR thread". :D
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I believe we are doing a pretty good job hijacking this "2Ch-only preamp thread" into "1-ohm-stable AVR thread". :D
And it wouldn't be dafirst time either (sorry, I've been waiting for an opportunity to drop that in :) ).
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You could have Multi-Channel Stereo, which takes 2Ch and mix to 5 or 7CH.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
We seem to get this nonsense a lot. A high quality AV pre/pro is an excellent pre amp two channel or other wise. I have thoroughly tested mine and it has absolutely no quality issues.

Adding a separate pre amp makes no sense unless you do what I do, to use a high quality preamp to convert to line and have a volume control right at the turntable when the turntable is a long way from the AVR. I use a Quad preamp with every turntable. In addition Quad preamps add facilities for vinyl not found on stand alone phono amps, or AVR or pre/pro phono inputs. But that is real luxury and certainly an indulgence.
 
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