Vinyl skipping

[killdozzer]

I'm trying to help a good friend of mine. He has a ProJect TT with a carbon arm. He set everything as indicated in manuals - the pressure of the needle, the anti-skating...

When he plays records that last longer (meaning the grooves are close) it'll start skipping in the middle of the record. It happens on various records, but always with those that last longer and always in the middle.

Where to start troubleshooting this?

I'll be grateful for any and all help!!

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd suspect the anti-skating force may be a bit much, perhaps tracking force a bit light. I suppose it could just be poor vinyl...

This one of those units with the cartridge pre-mounted? Or did he mount it and how?

 

[killdozzer]

I'd suspect the anti-skating force may be a bit much, perhaps tracking force a bit light. I suppose it could just be poor vinyl...

This one of those units with the cartridge pre-mounted? Or did he mount it and how?

I'll have to double check everything, but I suspect it was mounted. I didn't know what I need to ask up front so I'll do my best to provide all the details.

Is it possible that recommended anti-s and tracking-f turn out to be weak?

 

[slipperybidness]

How did he set the tracking force? Just trust the little marks on the weight? Or with a tracking force balance?

See my avatar pic? If you look closely, you will notice that the stylus of my Pro-Ject TT is resting on a tracking force balance.

 

[lovinthehd]

How did he set the tracking force? Just trust the little marks on the weight? Or with a tracking force balance?

See my avatar pic? If you look closely, you will notice that the stylus of my Pro-Ject TT is resting on a tracking force balance.

Yep, same goes for the anti-skating...just trusting the marks isn't necessarily the right setting.

By recommended, did he take the lightest recommended force or the highest recommended force? What cartridge is it?

 

[Mikado463]

dbl check everything .......

perfectly level tt/platter

confirm stylus tracking force and VTA (vertical tracking angle)

confirm anti-skating setting

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

See my avatar pic? If you look closely, you will notice that the stylus of my Pro-Ject TT is resting on a tracking force balance.

Awful small picture, even with glasses.

But, yes, I think I may have noticed. But, is it a precision scale?

 

[highfigh]

I'm trying to help a good friend of mine. He has a ProJect TT with a carbon arm. He set everything as indicated in manuals - the pressure of the needle, the anti-skating...

When he plays records that last longer (meaning the grooves are close) it'll start skipping in the middle of the record. It happens on various records, but always with those that last longer and always in the middle.

Where to start troubleshooting this?

I'll be grateful for any and all help!!

When it starts to skip- is this during loud passages in the music? Could be that the amplitude was too loud and his stylus is more sensitive or could be a compliance/tonearm mass mismatch. What is he using for a cartridge? If it's the one that came with it, it's probably an Ortofon, which should be able to handle whatever that tonearm throws at it, although the vinyl itself may be where the problem lies. If he got an upgrade, it may be a Sumiko Pearl (Sumiko distributes Pro-Ject in the US, but I don't know if they have a relationship outside of the US).

 

[M Code]

The 1st thing to check is the styus overhang spec...
Many users just mount a cartidge and never check this, this can/will create a significant tracking error. And since the tracking error is maximum in about the center of the LP playing area where he is advising teh problem is. If he doesn't know how to this, I would suggest he pick up a Mobile Fidelity Geo Disc available from Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=mobile+fidelity+geo+disc&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=153659170744&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13095331274838382291&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9031634&hvtargid=kwd-2021877405&ref=pd_sl_332gwb1jga_e

Just my $0.02...

 

[Ponzio]

Be nice & gentle with ur friend and tell him to prominently display his turntable and get an amp/receiver that can read a USB flash stick with high bit rate mp3(lame)/FLAC/WAV files and/or has analog inputs for a CD player that can also accept a USB flash stick for the best of both worlds.

My work here is done.

This has been a public service announcement.

 

[MR.MAGOO]

I'm trying to help a good friend of mine. He has a ProJect TT with a carbon arm. He set everything as indicated in manuals - the pressure of the needle, the anti-skating...

When he plays records that last longer (meaning the grooves are close) it'll start skipping in the middle of the record. It happens on various records, but always with those that last longer and always in the middle.

Where to start troubleshooting this?

I'll be grateful for any and all help!!

Is it this model of Pro-Ject?

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_252DBCDCGW/Pro-Ject-Debut-Carbon-DC-Gloss-White.html?tp=75887

Crutchfield will let you download the owners manual. The anti-skate weight has a very fine thin fishing line with a loop on one end, that loop goes in the 2nd notch of the weight adjustment scale.

 

[killdozzer]

It got late yesterday in my parts, that's why I didn't response until now.

How did he set the tracking force? Just trust the little marks on the weight? Or with a tracking force balance?

I think he trusted the numbers, he read the manual where the recommended weight is set and used those numbers, but I think he didn't have the precise weighing instrument.

By recommended, did he take the lightest recommended force or the highest recommended force? What cartridge is it?

I'll check these two. Thank you.

When is starts to skip- is this during loud passages in the music? Could be that the amplitude was too loud and his stylus is more sensitive or could be a compliance/tonearm mass mismatch.

Yes, I forgot about this. Even Toole mentions loud parts of vinyl being able to launch the arm in the air. I'm checking the details of the TT, I'll let you all know ASAP.

The 1st thing to check is the stylus overhang spec...

Many users just mount a cartridge and never check this, this can/will create a significant tracking error.

Is this about how low the needle is on the tonearm? Like in those cases where people would insert coins between the head and the cartridge (not that I'm planning to do so, I'm trying to understand what overhang is).

Crutchfield will let you download the owner's manual. The anti-skate weight has a very fine thin fishing line with a loop on one end, that loop goes in the 2nd notch of the weight adjustment scale.

Thanks, man! It is precisely that TT, but I have to check the full rig. I have to ask my friend if picked a different cartridge or changed anything.


Thank you all, I'll gather the info!

 

[highfigh]

Is this about how low the needle is on the tonearm? Like in those cases where people would insert coins between the head and the cartridge (not that I'm planning to do so, I'm trying to understand what overhang is).

Coins should NEVER be used on a modern turntable- the added mass really messes with the tonearm/cartridge match WRT mass and compliance. Any shim material that's added should be low mass. The shims would affect the angle of the stylus to the surface. A cartridge that swings on an arc over a disc with a different arc will only result in the stylus being 'aligned' in two points, as long as the radii allow it; 'aligned' meaning that the center line of the cartridge (assuming the cantilever isn't bent) meets the groove at a right angle to the tangent for that point. The cartridge is technically out of alignment inside and outside of these two points but it's unavoidable. Even a tangential tracking tonearm is out of alignment most of the time because the pitch of the groove changes and isn't absolutely consistent from LP to LP.

Overhang refers to the line from the tonearm pivot to the spindle and the distance from the spindle to the stylus tip- it will be located past the spindle.

The image in the link shows overhang to the left of the center of the disc-

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/gallery/image.php?mode=large&image_id=15862

 

[killdozzer]

It is exactly this model: Pro-Ject 1Xpression III

It has Ortofon 2m Red cartridge. Everything was factory mounted. He adjusted only the weight and anti-skating using no instruments, but little marks on the weight and the anti-skating dial.

Nothing else was messed with.

It'll skip on most records (and he does keep them nice n' clean) starting in the middle and increasing in skipping towards the end of the record.

He did notice it gets worse with records that last longer.

I'll ask for the rest of the details.

 

[TLS Guy]

It is exactly this model: Pro-Ject 1Xpression III

It has Ortofon 2m Red cartridge. Everything was factory mounted. He adjusted only the weight and anti-skating using no instruments, but little marks on the weight and the anti-skating dial.

Nothing else was messed with.

It'll skip on most records (and he does keep them nice n' clean) starting in the middle and increasing in skipping towards the end of the record.

He did notice it gets worse with records that last longer.

I'll ask for the rest of the details.

1). Make sure the turntable is perfectly level. This is a crucial first step.

2). Down load an alignment protractor from Vinyl engine for free. Check over hang and set it with obsessional accuracy.

3). Set the counterbalance weight to get the arm to the perfect point of balance, with the dial number showing zero.

4). Now set the desired tracking force to the maximum recommended by the manufacturer. For the Ortofon 2M Red that is 2 GM

Now set the the skating force.

If the turntable has a height adjustment for the arm, then that should be set before 2 so that the arm is parallel to the record surface. If there is no leveling adjustment then shims may have to be used between cartridge and shell.

That should set it up correctly.

 

[highfigh]

It is exactly this model: Pro-Ject 1Xpression III

It has Ortofon 2m Red cartridge. Everything was factory mounted. He adjusted only the weight and anti-skating using no instruments, but little marks on the weight and the anti-skating dial.

Nothing else was messed with.

It'll skip on most records (and he does keep them nice n' clean) starting in the middle and increasing in skipping towards the end of the record.

He did notice it gets worse with records that last longer.

I'll ask for the rest of the details.

Find out how he cleans them and ask if he has ever cleaned the stylus. If he uses some kind of liquid and a velvet brush, it's highly likely that the residue has accumulated on the stylus and the tip can no longer fit into the groove as deeply as it should. I have never been a fan of Discwasher-type cleaners and liquid, although I use the Audio-Technica version without the liquid. Every time I have seen a record cleaner of this type, the cloth had become very stiff and full of the crud that is formed when the liquid (basically some kind of purified water and alcohol) mixes with the dust and other stuff, then dries.

If the stylus and LPs are clean, the symptom does sound like the alignment, tracking force and anti-skate need tweaking.

Does it skip toward the outside and repeat the same part or toward the center?

 

[slipperybidness]

Yep, same goes for the anti-skating...just trusting the marks isn't necessarily the right setting.

By recommended, did he take the lightest recommended force or the highest recommended force? What cartridge is it?

Well, on the low-end Pro-Ject, the anti-skate device is a little weight hanging on some fishing line!

So, no real adjustment to make. Reviewing a post on this thread, it seems there may be a couple different notches on the back of the tone arm to choose from.

It looks cheap to me, but TLS claims this is the best anti-skate device out there.

 

[killdozzer]

1). Make sure the turntable is perfectly level. This is a crucial first step.

2). Down load an alignment protractor from Vinyl engine for free. Check over hang and set it with obsessional accuracy.

3). Set the counterbalance weight to get the arm to the perfect point of balance, with the dial number showing zero.

4). Now set the desired tracking force to the maximum recommended by the manufacturer. For the Ortofon 2M Red that is 2 GM

Now set the the skating force.

If the turntable has a height adjustment for the arm, then that should be set before 2 so that the arm is parallel to the record surface. If there is no leveling adjustment then shims may have to be used between cartridge and shell.

That should set it up correctly.

This is very useful and precise. Thank you. I will go through these steps. He's in another city so it may take me awhile, but I'll do it definitely.

Thanks again!

 

[killdozzer]

Does it skip toward the outside and repeat the same part or toward the center?

I will find out. This may be indicative.

 

[3db]

It is exactly this model: Pro-Ject 1Xpression III

It has Ortofon 2m Red cartridge. Everything was factory mounted. He adjusted only the weight and anti-skating using no instruments, but little marks on the weight and the anti-skating dial.

Nothing else was messed with.

It'll skip on most records (and he does keep them nice n' clean) starting in the middle and increasing in skipping towards the end of the record.

He did notice it gets worse with records that last longer.

I'll ask for the rest of the details.

That's the exact same model/cartridge I have and either the tracking is off or the cartridge is not mounted correctly on the head shell. Adjusting the tracking force must be done when that table is level. If he tried adjusting the tracking before leveling the table, all bets are off. Anothet thing to look at is to make sure the cueing mechanism is fully down when he lowers the arm to the record.