P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'll be curious of your findings. It won't change my use of the Crown for L/R either way, though. My listening habits are > 90% 2.2 ch music so I want that power to the mains.
Will post my findings this weekend.
 
F

Foxrox

Junior Audioholic
Wow! Thanks for all the great input! Sorry I was so slow to get back. Been very busy and traveling. ADTG, you really outdid it with those calculations. Based on that, I don’t think I’ll *need* the amp. My listening levels might rarely exceed 100 dB but not by much and not for long. I think I’ll just play it by ear (I’m sure that pun has never been used here before...). For now, I’ll just reserve my financial WAF for a second sub in a few months if I don’t notice any problems with clipping, excess heat, etc. I do think I’ll add an amp eventually either way, for the potential longevity benefits and just to play around with it. Once again, thanks everyone for the great responses. Very interesting to read.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
I’m not referring to dialogue, I’m referring to everything, including sound effects. I’ll have to pull a track into my DAW and isolate the center and show you what I mean.


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Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Okay, here are the stats of each channel during a fight scene in Thor.
Center Channel:
Peak Level: -.1dBfs
RMS Level: 10.2dBfs

Left Channel:
Peak Level: -1.dBfs
RMS Level: -14.3dBfs

Left Surround:
Peak Level: -.1dBfs
RMS Level: -19dBfs

Surround Spectrum, Peak @38hz


Center Spectrum, Peak@ 43hz


Left Spectrum, Peak @34hz


If you'd like to hear what's in the center channel all by itself (hint, it's not just dialogue, 70% of the sound effects are anchored to it), have a look at this file of a segment featuring the center channel alone. https://www.dropbox.com/s/bgidlrjkeor4hv7/center thor.m4a?dl=0

What does this mean? It means that the center channel requires 4x the amount of RMS power than the left/right. Most mtm centers have an extra 3dB of sensitivity due to dual woofers working inj tandem, so that leaves us with double the power, or 3dB. All chanells regular reach 0dBfs, if your system is calibrated to reference lev el, and the volume knob is set at 0dB, that means at the MLP, the speakers and amp must be capable of delivering 105dB PER CHANNEL, NOT COMBINED!

Now most of us listen between -5dB and -15dB, so if we take the middle of that at -10dB, that means that our amps and speakers must be capable of delivering 95dB at the mlp, and an RMS value of 80dB. A speaker rated at 87dB 1w/m (careful of the 2.8v measurement, you can drop ~1.5-3dB from the rating since most speakers dip to about 4-6ohms from 100hz-2khz, where most content is centered) would need about 2.5w RMS and about 75w peak at a listening distance of 12 feet with the volume set to -10dB. Hardly a difficult task for most AVRs. For real reference level listening, You'd need an amp capable of deliver 500w peaks (accounting for 3dB of room gain), and speakers capable of not blowing up with that kind of peak. At that point, more efficient speakers are a better solution.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I’m not referring to dialogue, I’m referring to everything, including sound effects. I’ll have to pull a track into my DAW and isolate the center and show you what I mean.


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For action packed movies without too much dialog, I would think the L,R combined would roughly equal contents in proportion, perhaps even higher peaks. I will be taking some measurements today and post my results.

For now, I'll bet the center will win on dialog abundant movies, about even with the L,R, on action packed ones, and lose on multi-channel music except vocal ones. For the center to have 60% as you suggested, you are going to have to cite a lot of examples, not just one or two specific titles, in order to draw a conclusion.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I am going to set the L,C,R to "large" for my measurements (voltages, not spl), unless there are objections.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
What does this mean? It means that the center channel requires 4x the amount of RMS power than the left/right.
... for that specific test piece. Cannot generalize beyond it.

Most mtm centers have an extra 3dB of sensitivity due to dual woofers working inj tandem
This is straight up meaningless and wrong. The driver selection and designer's choices will dictate speaker efficiency. Even comparing a MT bookshelf to a MTM with same drivers, the latter speaker's efficiency wont automatically be higher due to 2 Mids. One can't tell if the MTM is a 2 way or 2.5 way design just by looking at driver numbers.

This is also mentioned on your blog post. IMO, edit it to clarify, a 2 way MTM could be up to 3dB more efficient than a MT bookshelf using same drivers. In the blog you say, "in the same line", this is insufficient.

you can drop ~1.5-3dB from the rating since most speakers dip to about 4-6ohms from 100hz-2khz, where most content is centered
This is half truth and misinformation.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Round One, all readings are Vrms, Max./Avg.

Resident evil Retribution opening (No dialogue at all)

L: 0.94/0.64
C: 0.97/0.58
R. 0.83/0.61

Spider man 3, 00:33:39 to 00:35:26 (some dialogue)

L: 2.13/0.45
C: 2.42/0.89
R: 1.14/0.37

Dark Knight Rise, 0:4:21 to 0:06:05 (limited dialogue)

L: 2.96/1.4
C: 3.67/1.51
R: 3.56/1.63

It is a little late to do the math now, but I can see no evidence that supports yepimonfire's claim of "70% of the sound effects are anchored to it", not even close. Since it obviously depends a lot on the recordings, so it is possible that his claim could be true in some cases, but it should not be taken as the norm.

I intend to take more measurements using more BR movies, music, DVD-A or SACD mult-channel discs. It is a time consuming exercise, so I may have to spread it out over two weeks or so.

Update:

Round 2, music BR disc Chris Botti in Boston

Track: Indian Summer
Volume dial: -20
L: 0.68/0.37
C: 0.5/0.17
R: 0.74/0.4

Track Time to say goodbye
Volume dial: -15
L: 1.14/0.32
C: 0.89/0.27
R: 1.25/0.33

As expected, for music disc, the center channel did not have more contents, actually less than the L, R channels. The surround channels were just making quiet ambient sound so I didn't bother measuring them.

At volume -15, the center channel's average power draw appeared to be about .27X0.27/6 = 0.012 W, assuming the average impedance is 4 ohms, though the speaker was rated 8 ohms nominal. Maximum power draw was 0.89X0.89/6 = 0.132 W. That's assuming resistive load, I did not take current measurements. The VA draw would likely be 20 to 30% higher.
 
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Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
... for that specific test piece. Cannot generalize beyond it.

This is straight up meaningless and wrong. The driver selection and designer's choices will dictate speaker efficiency. Even comparing a MT bookshelf to a MTM with same drivers, the latter speaker's efficiency wont automatically be higher due to 2 Mids. One can't tell if the MTM is a 2 way or 2.5 way design just by looking at driver numbers.

This is also mentioned on your blog post. IMO, edit it to clarify, a 2 way MTM could be up to 3dB more efficient than a MT bookshelf using same drivers. In the blog you say, "in the same line", this is insufficient.

This is half truth and misinformation.
In general with a two way configuration a good deal are, in fact I bet I could find more mtm counterparts that do achieve an extra 3dB of sensitivity than don’t.

That isn’t the only movie I’ve tested like that with similar results. I can go through several others if necessary. The conclusion I’ve reached from picking apart multiple soundtracks is the center channel contains the most content out of all channels, and that the surrounds are not merely “barely used” for ambiance.

The fact of the matter is, at any point in time, any of 5/7 channels in a mix may hit 0dBfs, and multiple channels hitting peaks simultaneously is less rare than is commonly believed. There’s just no evidence to support the erroneous assumption that the front left and right speakers are the most important channels in a system. If someone can show me otherwise, fine, but I’ve yet to see it.

If you truly want to experience the full dynamics of movie soundtracks the way they’re intended to be, all speakers and amplifiers should be capable of handling full 0dBfs peaks (relative to a listeners preferred volume level, ie 90 dB at -15dB relative to reference or 105dB at true reference levels) without dynamic compression or distortion in regards to the distance from each channel. Obviously due to budget or space constraints, it’s not always possible to place five or seven large speakers in a room, but I’m talking ideally.

It also helps that in many homes the surrounds are placed closer to the mlp than the front channels, reducing the burden. My surrounds and front speakers are identical sensitivity, but my surrounds are 4’ closer to me than the fronts, enabling them to be calibrated 3dB lower than the front two, my overhead speakers are 3dB less efficient than my fronts, but are also 4’ closer, and they are therefore calibrated to the same trim level as the fronts. All speakers except for the heights (which are -3dB at 70hz) have an identical -3dB response down to 50hz, and are capable of 105dB at the MLP. With the knob set to 0dB, all speakers measured at 1m display less than 3% THD from 50hz for the floor speakers and 70hz for the height and above. Taking the in room sensitivity into account, all speakers are capable of achieving 95dB (I listen @ -10dB) with a mere 25w.

I guess it depends what’s most important to you. In my opinion, I’d rather my system be capable of clean, dynamic headroom during a worst case scenario of 0dBfs peaks with all 7 channels at once, even if it’s a rare occurrence. I’ve had setups with powerful left and right speakers and smaller satellites for surrounds, and there is just no comparison to the kind of dynamic continuity experienced with a system that is identically capable all around. There are a few threads from avs forum floating around detailing peoples experiences utilizing identical floor speakers for the surrounds as their left and right, and you will find nothing but positive comments on the improvement in doing so. I’m not saying one necessarily needs towers all around, or towers at all, just that each speakers and amplifiers should be equally capable and should be able to effortlessly reproduce the desired maximum level with some headroom to spare.


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Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
@PENG is that Vrms at the output of the amp/preamp? If so, are all channel trims set to an identical level?


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everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
.

I guess it depends what’s most important to you. In my opinion, I’d rather my system be capable of clean, dynamic headroom during a worst case scenario of 0dBfs peaks with all 7 channels at once, even if it’s a rare occurrence. I’ve had setups with powerful left and right speakers and smaller satellites for surrounds, and there is just no comparison to the kind of dynamic continuity experienced with a system that is identically capable all around. There are a few threads from avs forum floating around detailing peoples experiences utilizing identical floor speakers for the surrounds as their left and right, and you will find nothing but positive comments on the improvement in doing so. I’m not saying one necessarily needs towers all around, or towers at all, just that each speakers and amplifiers should be equally capable and should be able to effortlessly reproduce the desired maximum level with some headroom to spare.


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My goal is to have the most accurate sound reproduction. If that means I have to sacrifice dynamics to achieve this , I would.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@PENG is that Vrms at the output of the amp/preamp? If so, are all channel trims set to an identical level?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Test conditions:

- All channel level matched.
- Audyssey turned OFF.
- Left, Right, Center all set to "Large".

Voltage measured at speaker terminals, Fluke 87V set to Max/Min/Average, all voltage values are RMS.

So far, the center channel does seem to be driven the hardest, just not at the level you anticipated.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
There’s just no evidence to support the erroneous assumption that the front left and right speakers are the most important channels in a system.
I don't think anyone said that.

I think the Center channel is unequivocally salient.

My center speaker is identical to my front L/R and surround speakers.

The only thing we are debating is whether the center has the most demand for POWER or at least the same as the front L/R.

As PENG showed, it depends on the movie.

But thanks to your input (I do appreciate it), I agree that the Center deserves the same respect as the front L/R in terms of power requirement. :D

If anyone is getting an external amp, get at least a 3Ch amp for the front 3 speakers.
 
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Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
The only thing we are debating is whether the center has the most demand for POWER or at least the same as the front L/R.
The same (accounting for things like sensitivity, distance, etc.), given that any given channel, including the surround channels, can be fed anything up to 0dBFS. How much any given channel is utilized throughout a film makes no difference in that respect.
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
I'd live with it for a couple of weeks and see how it does. If you run into clipping, distortion or excessive heat grab an amp. I'm hesitant to recommend because I'd get at least a 5ch amp. Well... I actually got a 7 channel amp, so there you go.
I'm more in line with you here, but knowing what I do about AVRs and pushing them hard...the 4300 is going to run warm to the touch in a room that large. There's no way around it. He could probably get more efficient speakers, but the best thing going right now is the Monolith 7, refurbed...the Outlaw 5000 and 7140 are also both pretty good options.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm more in line with you here, but knowing what I do about AVRs and pushing them hard...the 4300 is going to run warm to the touch in a room that large. There's no way around it. He could probably get more efficient speakers, but the best thing going right now is the Monolith 7, refurbed...the Outlaw 5000 and 7140 are also both pretty good options.
I would slightly disagree with the Outlaw amps being good options. They will certainly help, especially in the longevity of the AVR, but otherwise marginal gain only. He needs the Monlith's 200 WPC to really make a noticeable difference.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The same (accounting for things like sensitivity, distance, etc.), given that any given channel, including the surround channels, can be fed anything up to 0dBFS. How much any given channel is utilized throughout a film makes no difference in that respect.
So all channels (FR, FL, C, SR, SL, etc.) can potentially get the same amount of power requirement at any given time?

Which means if people are getting external amps, they might as well get external amps for all channels, not just the front 3?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I would slightly disagree with the Outlaw amps being good options. They will certainly help, especially in the longevity of the AVR, but otherwise marginal gain only. He needs the Monlith's 200 WPC to really make a noticeable difference.
I agree.

If people are spending money on external amps, they might as well get a 200WPC or 300WPC amp, especially when people can get a professional amp like the Crown 200WPC stereo amp for about $200 or 300WPC stereo amp for $300 brand new on Amazon.
 
Last edited:
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
So all channels (FR, FL, C, SR, SL, etc.) can potentially get the same amount of power requirement at any given time?
Accounting for differences in sensitivity, distance, etc., yes. At full reference level, any channel (aside from LFE which is boosted 10dB) is expected to be able to produce a peak of 105dB at the MLP. Whether or not any given soundtrack makes use of that headroom is another story.

Which means if people are getting external amps, they might as well get external amps for all channels, not just the front 3?
Depends on whether or not you figure the AVR can drive the remaining channels adequately. Receivers that have preouts in the first place are generally respectable, and taking the L/C/R load off is obviously still going to help a great deal for those moments when multiple channels peak simultaneously.
 
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