Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

[PENG]

No, we have one, but I don't know if it's any good and I don't really know how to use it, but a guessimate would be nice

I am thinking of playing a test tone, and then measure the preout voltage of my AVP without the power amp on(don't want to damage my hearing)when cranking up the volume. Then I will do the same using my Denon avr. The numbers will give you an idea of what to expect at a given input voltage. Again, it depends on the input signal voltage to the preamp. The higher the input signal voltage, the lower the volume level for the same preout voltage.

 

[Nordvest]

That would be really interesting and helpful!

Yes, I understand (I think). I, personally, play the loudest when I play music from a Bluesound Node that's connected to the Denon with an optical connection and when using our AppleTV 4 (HDMI). I have no idea what voltages those have though...

 

[PENG]

That would be really interesting and helpful!

Yes, I understand (I think). I, personally, play the loudest when I play music from a Bluesound Node that's connected to the Denon with an optical connection and when using our AppleTV 4 (HDMI). I have no idea what voltages those have though...

I will do it tomorrow, not home today. It doesn't matter what input source because music signal varies continuously anyway.

 

[Nordvest]

Excellent, thank you so much, I really appreciate it!

 

[Pogre]

No, we have one, but I don't know if it's any good and I don't really know how to use it, but a guessimate would be nice

I think he means he can guesstimate if you use the multimeter.

*Edit: And then there's a page 2 to this thread...

 

[PENG]

I think he means he can guesstimate if you use the multimeter.

*Edit: And then there's a page 2 to this thread...

Thanks, that's really what I meant. Without a multimeter to take some measurements, it would be difficult to even guess, meaning educated guess.

 

[Nordvest]

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

Let's hope the reviewer sees the thread and remember some approximate numbers

 

[PENG]

Hello Nordvest, I couldn't find time to do it until this afternoon. Below the the results:

*Please note that the measurements I took would normally mean almost nothing because I only measured voltages, with no reference to distortions, frequency response, SNR etc etc. I did it only because Nordvest wants to know the maximum volume position he can use and still expect the preout voltage to be <= 2V rms. He wants to keep the preout below 2V because in Gene's review, he noted that at 2Vrms, "things got a little grainer".

The measurements are not going to be very accurate as I relied on a true rms Fluke multimeter, a MP3 1kHz sine wave downloaded from the internet, nothing like Gene's AP. IMO the numbers do allow me to take a reasonable projection for Nordvest under certain assumptions, one being that the gain of my AVR-3805 is similar to that of the AVR-X3300W.

DUT - Denon AVR-3805, no time to measure the AV8801 yet.
Multimeter used - Fluke 87V true rms multimeter
Source signal - REW generator, 1 kHz sine wave, 16 bit 44.1 kHz
SPL meter - Radio Shack Cat.# 33-2055

Master vol----Preout Volt (V)-----SPL (dB) @ 1meter (C weighted fast)

-32--------------0.0071------------
-26--------------0.01425-----------
-20--------------0.02845-----------
-10--------------0.089--------------
-4.5-------------0.1733----------------85
0----------------0.28-------------------90
6----------------0.56035---------------
9----------------0.783------------------
12---------------1.094------------------
18--------------2.015V---------------

In order to get higher voltages, I then used an external DAC (rated output: 2V) to play a 60 second long sine wave and results are as follow.

-15---------------0.1589---------------85
-10---------------0.2813---------------
-6----------------0.4359----------------
0-----------------0.886-----------------
6-----------------1.77------------------
7.5-------------2.072V---------------

The actual measured output voltage from the DAC was 1.166V

With master volume at "0", the speaker output voltage was approx. 21.92V, so the calculated gain would be approx 28 dB.

Assuming the the AVR-3805 and X3300W have similar gains, the preout should not come close to 2V until the master volume is well above 0. At or below "0", you should be fine, just be careful if and when you play program material that were recorded at very high level.

 

[Nordvest]

This is excellent, thank you very much, I really appreciate it!

Looks like I could go way higher than I would have assumed before it reaches 2V and a fair bit more before reaching 4.5V where the clipping starts (given similar gains). Based on the last measurement 4,5V would be something like +14 db on the master volume if my math is no completely off

 

[PENG]

This is excellent, thank you very much, I really appreciate it!

Looks like I could go way higher than I would have assumed before it reaches 2V and a fair bit more before reaching 4.5V where the clipping starts (given similar gains). Based on the last measurement 4,5V would be something like +14 db on the master volume if my math is no completely off

Yes, +14 is about right. You have to be careful though because it depends on the recording level of the signal. The test tone I downloaded was recorded such that I was getting 1.166V from the output. Test tone gives a constant output, whereas music and movies signal's amplitude varies all the time so during the dynamic music peaks and movie explosion scenes the preout voltage could (though it seems unlikely) exceed 2V at master volume as low as "0".

I am measuring the maximum output level now when playing a CD, just regular pops that shouldn't have much dynamic. If I can find time, I can try to do the same with a BR movie.

On the other hand, it is a moot point because at 2V, the speaker output of the AVR-X3300W will likely be clipping anyway.

 

[PENG]

I measured the CD player output voltage, it was a whopping 2.413V. The preout voltage of my AVR-3805 measured 1.922V at volume 0.

To avoid any clipping, I think you would be safe if you don't ever go pass -2. I think BR movie output is quite a bit lower than CDs so you probably could go as high as +3. Again, all these are just educated guess. To be 100% sure you will have to take measurements with your gear and play your own source media.

 

[Nordvest]

I've been testing a bit today and I can't quite figure out what's going on.

On movies it looks like -12 db is high enough for me (XT 32 set to Reference and Dynamic equalizer set on, reference offset 0). Here I have a wide margin in other words

On multichannel music I turn it up to about -2 to get it (really) loud. Probably safe

But on music in stereo (from the Bluesound Node, connected with optical) I have to set it around +6db to get to the upper listening level I use (factoring in that I have raised to source level on the input with +6, so 0 on the master level). On the Apple TV 4 (hdmi) I also have to turn it up to those levels to get the right omph

This is probably because the power amp has an input sensitivity of 1,7V?

Although, if I stream music from the inbuilt airplay on the Denon, -10db on the master volume it is plenty loud. Makes me wonder if it all has more to do with the output levels from the Bluesound and Apple TV or the input sensitivity on the X3300.

It's strange because the power amp is a Marantz PM11S3 with ht-bypass and that on its own has no problem driving our front speakers to a thunderous level. There's no problem playing a cd at 100db (peaks) if I play it through the Marantz directly (and that's without subs), but if I play it through the Denon (with subs) I only get about 90 db when the master level is at 0db. With "overdriving" to 5db I get the level that I would expect (or a little less).

Please note that I don't listen to music that loud for long, but it's nice to know that the headroom is there

From what you write about the results from your extremely kind and helpful testing I ought to get high enough voltage to drive the Marantz power amp fully with the Denon master volume below or around 0db, but somehow I don't. It's all very confusing

Thank you again so much for testing and for helping me with this! It's so kind of you and I truly appreciate it!

Sorry about this very rambling post, I guess it is as confused as I am

 

[PENG]

There must be a logical explanation. Let me think about it and read up on the Bluesound thing.

 

[Nordvest]

Excellent, this goes way over my head Thanks so much again!

I've been testing some more with our decibel meter (Radioshack analog):

With the master volume set to 0db (effectively, source level boosts taken into consideration) I get the following peak values on a test song:

Bluesound (optical): 90-92db in the room (C-weighted)

Apple TV 4 (hdmi): 94-96 db

Airplay (inbuilt in the X3300): over 100 db (couldn't test for long enough to get more accurate values, too loud)

I could of course just use the inbuilt Airplay, but there seems to be a little "noise" there periodically (some clicking sounds if I play a test tone, even at lower volume levels when it just can't be clipping). Also, the Bluesound has a better control program and can play high-resolution files (but all the testing is done with the same standard resolution file on all sources)

 

[panteragstk]

You guys have me wonder what my 4300h will have for the pre-out voltage.

Just need to find my multi-meter...

 

[Nordvest]

Just remembered that the Bluesound is set to Bypass L/R and the Apple TV to Reference in Audessey so that might explain some (or all) of the difference in sound pressure between those two, but they're still both significantly less loud than the inbuilt Airplay (which is also set to Reference) (and also lower than playing directly through the stereo amp)


Edit: just checked and it did indeed explain most of the difference between the Bluesound and the Apple TV

 

[Nordvest]

You guys have me wonder what my 4300h will have for the pre-out voltage.

Just need to find my multi-meter...

Please report the results if you do, the more results the better

 

[panteragstk]

I measured the CD player output voltage, it was a whopping 2.413V. The preout voltage of my AVR-3805 measured 1.922V at volume 0.

To avoid any clipping, I think you would be safe if you don't ever go pass -2. I think BR movie output is quite a bit lower than CDs so you probably could go as high as +3. Again, all these are just educated guess. To be 100% sure you will have to take measurements with your gear and play your own source media.

Dumb question time: How did you measure the output voltage? I can't get my multi-meter to register anything.

 

[PENG]

Just remembered that the Bluesound is set to Bypass L/R and the Apple TV to Reference in Audessey so that might explain some (or all) of the difference in sound pressure between those two, but they're still both significantly less loud than the inbuilt Airplay (which is also set to Reference) (and also lower than playing directly through the stereo amp)


Edit: just checked and it did indeed explain most of the difference between the Bluesound and the Apple TV

I have an Apple TV but I find it hard to compare it's output level with my other digital sources. There are many reason why you perceive one is louder than the other. Below are just a few examples that I can think of.

1. Program material related - How loud you get from a source media depends to a large extent on the program. For example, most things on YouTube would sound loud, but some programs will be louder than others, the difference between different program materials could be huge. You need to make sure you are comparing apple to apple.

2. Media player related - I don't have a Bluesound node, and know nothing about it, but I think we can safely assume the output level would also depends on the program material.

3. Gains related - The AVR-X3300W and PM-11S3's rated power output are comparable, but the gain structures are most likely different so you can't just go by the master volume position.

4. Speaker impedance - Check to make sure 8 ohm is selected.

If you are using the Marantz as the power amp for the L,R channels using the X3300W preouts, then you need to make sure the output levels of all channels are equal, when listening in your main sitting position. If you run Audyssey, it will take care of that for you, otherwise you have to do it manually, using the AVR's test tone and a SPL meter. If you don't then the L, R channels will be louder assuming the Marantz amp has a higher gain.

 

[PENG]

Dumb question time: How did you measure the output voltage? I can't get my multi-meter to register anything.

I played a 60s long 1,000 hz sine wave tone on either my universal player, or one of my external dac. Most downloadable tones on the internet are short ones, like 30 seconds. That will be fine too but I prefer longer ones as it makes the job easier and quicker. Then I measure the output of the source player (universal player, cd/dvd player, dac etc.) and then the output of the preout of the AVR. I only measure the right channel. Make sure you set the meter to measure AC voltage. If you set it to DC, you will get a very low voltage, the lower the better becaus e you would be measuring the offset voltage.