Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

[panteragstk]

I played a 60s long 1,000 hz sine wave tone on either my universal player, or one of my external dac. Most downloadable tones on the internet are short ones, like 30 seconds. That will be fine too but I prefer longer ones as it makes the job easier and quicker. Then I measure the output of the source player (universal player, cd/dvd player, dac etc.) and then the output of the preout of the AVR. I only measure the right channel. Make sure you set the meter to measure AC voltage. If you set it to DC, you will get a very low voltage, the lower the better becaus e you would be measuring the offset voltage.


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I'll try that. I was using DC and just playing music. I'll try a sine wave and see if that gets better results.

 

[PENG]

I'll try that. I was using DC and just playing music. I'll try a sine wave and see if that gets better results.

Problem with using music is that it fluctuates too much. I will still give you an idea but a very rough idea..

 

[Nordvest]

I have an Apple TV but I find it hard to compare it's output level with my other digital sources. There are many reason why you perceive one is louder than the other. Below are just a few examples that I can think of.

1. Program material related - How loud you get from a source media depends to a large extent on the program. For example, most things on YouTube would sound loud, but some programs will be louder than others, the difference between different program materials could be huge. You need to make sure you are comparing apple to apple.

2. Media player related - I don't have a Bluesound node, and know nothing about it, but I think we can safely assume the output level would also depends on the program material.

3. Gains related - The AVR-X3300W and PM-11S3's rated power output are comparable, but the gain structures are most likely different so you can't just go by the master volume position.

4. Speaker impedance - Check to make sure 8 ohm is selected.

If you are using the Marantz as the power amp for the L,R channels using the X3300W preouts, then you need to make sure the output levels of all channels are equal, when listening in your main sitting position. If you run Audyssey, it will take care of that for you, otherwise you have to do it manually, using the AVR's test tone and a SPL meter. If you don't then the L, R channels will be louder assuming the Marantz amp has a higher gain.

Thanks for yet another very helpful post, I'll try to go over each numbered point individually:

1. Yes, this will matter greatly, but I tested with the same version of the same song from each source (should be apples to apples) and I still measured a difference of at least 6db on the internal Airplay on the X3300 compared to the Apple TV and the Bluesound

2. I'm suspecting that this might be much of the issue, it might have a weak output on its optical output compared to other sources. But: would that mean that I can boost the source level a bit without worrying because the weaker output from the Bluesound (probably) will give a lesser voltage out on the pre outs than for example a cd player would do?

3. Sounds plausible. Would that also mean that I perhaps should be able to go over 0db on the Denon master volume? It sort of makes sense because when I use other inputs on the Marantz there's no problem reaching 100db while when I play through the Denon it stops well before that if I can't go higher than 0 on the master volume (and that's even with two rather powerful subwoofers added when I play through the Denon).
I'm thinking that I logically should be able to reach the same levels playing through the Denon as the Marantz does alone because the Marantz is the amp doing the amplification in both cases.

4. Good tip! I checked and it's on 8 ohm and Eco is off too.

Yes, they should be level matched like that. I have run the calibration and checked the levels with the decibel meters afterwards.

 

[panteragstk]

Problem with using music is that it fluctuates too much. I will still give you an idea but a very rough idea..

I got very consistent results using a sine wave, but I think my multi-meter isn't the most accurate. It's an old Radio Shack that has pins and not clamps. I placed the red pin on the end of an RCA cable and got 1-1.2v with the lowest AC setting on my meter (200). This was at multiple tones and the results were always within that range.

I think in order for me to say these are accurate results I need a better meter, and probably a better way to clamp onto a cable without a connector on the end.

 

[PENG]

I got very consistent results using a sine wave, but I think my multi-meter isn't the most accurate. It's an old Radio Shack that has pins and not clamps. I placed the red pin on the end of an RCA cable and got 1-1.2v with the lowest AC setting on my meter (200). This was at multiple tones and the results were always within that range.

I think in order for me to say these are accurate results I need a better meter, and probably a better way to clamp onto a cable without a connector on the end.

I stripped one end of a red/white RCA interconnect, one of those cheap one that came with a 39.99 DVD player. Then I use the crocodile clips for a solid connection.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for yet another very helpful post, I'll try to go over each numbered point individually:

I have had fun doing it, so maybe I should be thanking you. Or let's call it even.

1. Yes, this will matter greatly, but I tested with the same version of the same song from each source (should be apples to apples) and I still measured a difference of at least 6db on the internal Airplay on the X3300 compared to the Apple TV and the Bluesound

Okay then the source media file is not the issue, but the hardware have different characteristics, this is most likely normal.

2. I'm suspecting that this might be much of the issue, it might have a weak output on its optical output compared to other sources. But: would that mean that I can boost the source level a bit without worrying because the weaker output from the Bluesound (probably) will give a lesser voltage out on the pre outs than for example a cd player would do?

Again, this can be entirely normal, that the Bluesound node may in fact has a lower output. Just like some preamps have lower input, even very expensive high end ones could have lower outputs.

3. Sounds plausible. Would that also mean that I perhaps should be able to go over 0db on the Denon master volume? It sort of makes sense because when I use other inputs on the Marantz there's no problem reaching 100db while when I play through the Denon it stops well before that if I can't go higher than 0 on the master volume (and that's even with two rather powerful subwoofers added when I play through the Denon).

Yes, if you can go above 0, though in my medium small HT room I have never felt the need to go higher than -10, even -15 is loud even for me. Do you have a large room, and speakers that have low sensitivities?

I'm thinking that I logically should be able to reach the same levels playing through the Denon as the Marantz does alone because the Marantz is the amp doing the amplification in both cases.

If you have run Audsyssey already after adding the amp, you should be fine, and I think you are fine. You can't compare the two configurations easily and properly, because one is a combination of an AVR driving a power amp, the other is an integrated amp. I don't understand what you meant by "....should be able to reach the same levels.........". When you are using the Marantz on its own, you don't even use the Denon's master volume right? So how the heck can you do an apple to apple comparison?. For one thing, based on Gene's measurements, I bet the Marantz preamp does have a higher gain, another reason why you can't do such comparison and draw a conclusion based on your perceived loudness.

Yes, they should be level matched like that. I have run the calibration and checked the levels with the decibel meters afterwards.

Yes, Audyssey should have level matched them properly. I am not surprised that your manual check confirmed the same.

 

[Nordvest]

Sounds good, glad it was fun I'm really grateful for the help!

1 and 2 sounds like they might be much of the issue

3. I think it's a combination. Power amp with a need for more voltage than the one we had before (the last one needed just 0,8V), speakers on the lower end sensitivity wise (87,3) and not a large room, but not small either, around 30-35 square meters.
The speakers we had earlier had a sensitivity of 93 and with the then power amp just needing 0,8v to be driven fully, it was blaringly loud at around -15 for music in stereo.

Yes, audesseyed with the new amp.

I'm struggling to understand the last part. The Marantz is the power amp. It has a power amp direct button that I push when I use the surround receiver, I use the Marantz alone for playing vinyl records, cds and a lot of other music. However, sometimes when I want a little more oomph in the lower frequencies I use the Denon with its connected subwoofers as a preamp so to speak for the Marantz, but it's still the Marantz that's the amplification for the front speakers.

I guess the point I'm trying to make (rather badly) is that if the Marantz alone (without the Denon as a preamp and therefore without subwoofers) is able to drive the front speakers well over 100db without any distortion, it should be able to do that acting as a power amp for the Denon too, especially as there's two hefty subwoofers playing as well then.

And the Denon should be able to give the Marantz enough voltage to reach its full volume because the Denon can go as high as 4.5V without distorting and the Marantz just needs 1,7V. But, for some reason, it doesn't happen when I play music through the Denon at 0db master volume. I just get around 94db peaks then even if I know that the Marantz at a reasonable blast is able to produce over 100db alone.

(I'm always talking about measured sound levels, not just perceived)

It can be low output levels from the music sources connected to the Denon, it can be something with the gain on the power amp direct input on the Marantz or it can be that the Denon reaches 1,7V on its pre outs over 0db master volume.

I think it might be due to low output from the sources as you say, that to me sounds like the most plausible explanation (especially since the internal Airplay on the X3300 reaches the volume levels that I would expect), but the thing I'm not sure of is how much I can compensate for this by turning the volume over 0db.

Maybe if I try really gradually and back down if anything sounds strained. Or, alternatively, I'll try to learn how to use our multimeter without short circuiting anything

 

[PENG]

Sounds good, glad it was fun I'm really grateful for the help!

1 and 2 sounds like they might be much of the issue

3. I think it's a combination. Power amp with a need for more voltage than the one we had before (the last one needed just 0,8V), speakers on the lower end sensitivity wise (87,3) and not a large room, but not small either, around 30-35 square meters.
The speakers we had earlier had a sensitivity of 93 and with the then power amp just needing 0,8v to be driven fully, it was blaringly loud at around -15 for music in stereo.

Yes, audesseyed with the new amp.

I'm struggling to understand the last part. The Marantz is the power amp. It has a power amp direct button that I push when I use the surround receiver, I use the Marantz alone for playing vinyl records, cds and a lot of other music. However, sometimes when I want a little more oomph in the lower frequencies I use the Denon with its connected subwoofers as a preamp so to speak for the Marantz, but it's still the Marantz that's the amplification for the front speakers.

I guess the point I'm trying to make (rather badly) is that if the Marantz alone (without the Denon as a preamp and therefore without subwoofers) is able to drive the front speakers well over 100db without any distortion, it should be able to do that acting as a power amp for the Denon too, especially as there's two hefty subwoofers playing as well then.

And the Denon should be able to give the Marantz enough voltage to reach its full volume because the Denon can go as high as 4.5V without distorting and the Marantz just needs 1,7V. But, for some reason, it doesn't happen when I play music through the Denon at 0db master volume. I just get around 94db peaks then even if I know that the Marantz at a reasonable blast is able to produce over 100db alone.

(I'm always talking about measured sound levels, not just perceived)

It can be low output levels from the music sources connected to the Denon, it can be something with the gain on the power amp direct input on the Marantz or it can be that the Denon reaches 1,7V on its pre outs over 0db master volume.

I think it might be due to low output from the sources as you say, that to me sounds like the most plausible explanation (especially since the internal Airplay on the X3300 reaches the volume levels that I would expect), but the thing I'm not sure of is how much I can compensate for this by turning the volume over 0db.

Maybe if I try really gradually and back down if anything sounds strained. Or, alternatively, I'll try to learn how to use our multimeter without short circuiting anything

There can be many reasons as you are comparing two different configurations.

To narrow things down a little, can you hook up your CD player to the Denon, still use the Marantz as power amp and see how loud you get compared to the Marantz on it's own?

Even in such simple test, it is hard to compare without taking measurements because you cannot go by the volume position of an AVR and an integrated amp.

 

[PENG]

Also keep in mind that after running Audyssey, with master volume at 0, if you play a THX standard movie you should get 85 dB average from your main mic position. If you are getting that, then everything is normal. The Marantz on it's own, if sounds louder, it would be because of the higher output level of the source, and/or the Marantz preamp has a higher gain. As I said before, the Marantz preamp does seem have to have a higher gain than the Denon's preamp, by perhaps 3 to 4 dB.

 

[Nordvest]

Yes, I can try that or check with an old Squeezebox (analog outs) that we have to see if it's the same problem there (think I'll try that first because connecting the cd player to the Denon takes a lot of rigging).

Yes, I understand, and I'm not comparing volume levels as such, only observing that 0db on the Denon master volume gives an surprisingly low (measured) sound pressure in the room compared to what the Marantz is able to (without strain or weird noises). And that makes me wonder if I can turn the Denon volume louder so I get a similar sound pressure from it (with the Marantz as power amp) without going into clipping). But, yeah, I understand even that test won't say much without measurements.

 

[Nordvest]

Also keep in mind that after running Audyssey, with master volume at 0, if you play a THX standard movie you should get 85 dB average from your main mic position. If you are getting that, then everything is normal. The Marantz on it's own, if sounds louder, it would be because of the higher output level of the source, and/or the Marantz preamp has a higher gain. As I said before, the Marantz preamp does seem have to have a higher gain than the Denon's preamp, by perhaps 3 to 4 dB.

3 to 4db added gain would mean just about reaching 100db so that can explain a fair bit of it. On the other hand, I run the subwoofers a bit hot so they should contribute with some decibels when using the Denon.

 

[Nordvest]

And I think I get the right levels when watching movies, -10db is more than loud enough then. (Another thing that points in the direction of low output from the sources perhaps?)

 

[PENG]

Yes, I can try that or check with an old Squeezebox (analog outs) that we have to see if it's the same problem there (think I'll try that first because connecting the cd player to the Denon takes a lot of rigging).

Yes, I understand, and I'm not comparing volume levels as such, only observing that 0db on the Denon master volume gives an surprisingly low (measured) sound pressure in the room compared to what the Marantz is able to (without strain or weird noises). And that makes me wonder if I can turn the Denon volume louder so I get a similar sound pressure from it (with the Marantz as power amp) without going into clipping). But, yeah, I understand even that test won't say much without measurements.

You said the spl was low at mv=0, but Audyssey must have calibrated the system to give 85db average at mv 0 from your main sitting position.

If you do get 85db when playing a Blue ray movie that is mastered to thx standard, then it is not "surprisingly low", if not then something is wrong for sure.

I suggested CD player because they typically have higher output.

I am still not clear if you have actually done an apple to apple comparison.

For an apple to apple comparisons you have to use the same source program and player, and equalize their gains. You can't just set the Denon volume to 0 and compare it to the Marantz integrated that is set to some unknown level and driven by a different source.

 

[PENG]

And I think I get the right levels when watching movies, -10db is more than loud enough then. (Another thing that points in the direction of low output from the sources perhaps?)

Very likely, that's why the first step is, use the same source for both configuration.

Second step, if you choose to set the Denon mv to 0, then you have to determine what is the equivalent volume position of the Marantz mv.

The Denon's mv goes from about -79 to +18, how about the Marantz, is it analog, or also digital?

 

[Nordvest]

The Marantz goes from -100 to 0 and reaches peaks of a 100db around -20/18db (same song, same source(Bluesound), but with analog outputs so not really comparable probably)

Anyway, I tested some more today.

First I tried with a Chromecast (I have an inflamed wrist so I would rather avoid moving around the whole setup to connect the cd player to the Denon):
Tested with the same song at 0 master volume and got peaks of 101-102db. In other words, significantly louder than both the Bluesound and the Apple Tv. And comparable to the levels I get on the Marantz.

Then I remembered that we have a Bluray-player connected (never use it for CDs) and decided to test with that. Here I ran into a problem because I don't find the cd with the same song so I had to test with another song (not ideal, but I picked one that I thought would have about the same "loudness"). Here I also got peaks at about 101-102db at 0 master volume.

My conclusion from this is that both the Bluray-player and the Chromecast have a higher output than the Bluesound and the Apple Tv. Furthermore, they're able to produce the decibel pressure that I want at 0db (and are more in line with how the Marantz performs alone).

The Bluesound and Apple TV give about 6db lower sound pressure in the room at the same master volume.
I would prefer to use the Bluesound (user experience/high resolution) and I, therefore, wonder if I could boost the source level on the Denon for its input with about 6db to get the same sound pressure from it at master volume 0 without running into clipping?
If that is too risky, I can use the Bluesound for the 90% of the time when I play at lower levels and switch to the Chromecast when I really want to listen loud.

 

[PENG]

I would prefer to use the Bluesound (user experience/high resolution) and I, therefore, wonder if I could boost the source level on the Denon for its input with about 6db to get the same sound pressure from it at master volume 0 without running into clipping?
If that is too risky, I can use the Bluesound for the 90% of the time when I play at lower levels and switch to the Chromecast when I really want to listen loud.

Now that you have found the main reason for the discrepancy in spl between the two configurations, you can increase or decrease the source level for each input to balance things off.

As I mentioned before, the position of the master volume when the preamp reaches 2V rms depends on the source output (input to the Denon) level, not just the maximum gain of the preamp. So if you "boost" the source level, your Denon's preamp output will reach 2Vrms sooner because you are effectively putting a +offset on the master volume.

As for risk, based on the measurements I have taken for you, I am confident that if you don't go pass "0", your Denon will stay below 2Vrms, the peaks could be much higher though.

To be on the safe side, it is better to use your BR player's output level as reference because Audyssey should have calibrated your AVR to produce 85 dB average and 105 dB peak from you main listening position with master volume at "0". If you boost any source input too much, you will increase the risk of reaching of 2Vrms at mv 0, though unlikely. Then again, I wouldn't worry about that at all because that will most likely only happen during the highest peaks of the program material; and the Denon preout reached 4.5V when it clipped, according to Gene's measurements. In fact, your PM11S3 would clip sooner.

Just one last step, please check and let me know the level adjustments of each channels.

 

[Nordvest]

The channel levels are all (a few db) negative except for the fronts that are +1

I'll calibrate the other sources with a test tone so that they match the Bluray.

Good point about there being sort of a safety margin between 2v and 4,5v (and, besides, as you say, the Marantz will probably start clipping before that anyway).


Thank you again so much for all the measurements and all the help, it's been extremely helpful!

 

[Nordvest]

Oh no, so sorry, I messed up taking the measurements earlier today, I run the subwoofers hotter on the Bluray because we use it only for film and I might have forgotten to turn them down. Or I might have messed up something else, too many options (same with the chromecast). The sound levels are all identical if the subs are set to the same gain. That makes sense actually because they're all connected digitally and the levels then depend on the DAC in the Denon that they're all running through.

I'll have to try an analog connection and see what that does, but I'll have to get some new interconnects before I check that.

I think I'll gently try to boost the source level in small increments in the mean time and just listen to hear how that sounds. I might also try to rerun Audyssey to see if that somehow helps.

 

[Nordvest]

Found a cable and tested with our Squeezebox (which has an output voltage of 1,8v) and got more or less the same results there too. Unsure what that means because I'm unsure if the X3300 digitizes the analog inputs to apply room correction and so on.

Anyway, looks like this is just the way it is with this combination of amps and that if I want to get it to play louder I'll have to try to run it over 0db master volume. I might try gently raising the volume over a number of days to see if that works and back straight down if I hear any signs of strain or distortion.

 

[Pogre]

Found a cable and tested with our Squeezebox (which has an output voltage of 1,8v) and got more or less the same results there too. Unsure what that means because I'm unsure if the X3300 digitizes the analog inputs to apply room correction and so on.

Anyway, looks like this is just the way it is with this combination of amps and that if I want to get it to play louder I'll have to try to run it over 0db master volume. I might try gently raising the volume over a number of days to see if that works and back straight down if I hear any signs of strain or distortion.

If I were to listen over 0db I'd have to sell all of my equipment because I'd be deaf!