Incorporating MiniDSP With Audyssey XT32

[Pogre]

I have been experimenting with direct, pure direct and l/r bypass on Audyssey a lot lately. I like some things about direct or bypass and I also like things that Audyssey does. I can't seem to get the best of both at the same time tho.

When I'm in direct mode I get more of that mid bass that kicks you in the chest from my towers, which I like, but the rest just doesn't sound as good to me as having Audyssey enabled. Basically, I like Audyssey's room correction, but it makes my towers sound anemic in the bass department. Even at full range. If I turn the subs off and set the towers to full range my low end just disappears.

In direct mode there's actually too much bass (no sub, just towers). It gets a little muddy and a lot boomy. Plugging the ports on the towers tames it down and I still get that punch. I tried l/r bypass in the Audyssey settings and set the crossover at 40hz and it sounded pretty good. The Hsu's were giving me the extension in the lower octaves and the towers give me the punch in the middle, but the upper frequencies were muddy. I prefer Audyssey's room correction on the upper frequencies over direct.

I prefer Audyssey's eq settings when I'm running the subs with the towers, but I feel like the towers have more to add from what I hear in direct mode and I don't know how to get it dialed in. I do still have that unopened 2x4 MiniDSP HD... Is this a case of me preferring a hump in the mid-lower range that would not measure flat or do I need to just stfu and be happy with what I have?

If the editor app worked like it was supposed to, this could even be something fun for me to experiment with.

*Edit: I've tried turning dynamic eq on and off with all of the different modes I experimented with. Turning it on in l/r bypass made the bass explode when I didn't plug the ports. It was quite impressive actually. I believe SVS when they claim these towers dig down into the upper 20's, no problem.

 

[panteragstk]

I have been experimenting with direct, pure direct and l/r bypass on Audyssey a lot lately. I like some things about direct or bypass and I also like things that Audyssey does. I can't seem to get the best of both at the same time tho.

When I'm in direct mode I get more of that mid bass that kicks you in the chest from my towers, which I like, but the rest just doesn't sound as good to me as having Audyssey enabled. Basically, I like Audyssey's room correction, but it makes my towers sound anemic in the bass department. Even at full range. If I turn the subs off and set the towers to full range my low end just disappears.

In direct mode there's actually too much bass (no sub, just towers). It gets a little muddy and a lot boomy. Plugging the ports on the towers tames it down and I still get that punch. I tried l/r bypass in the Audyssey settings and set the crossover at 40hz and it sounded pretty good. The Hsu's were giving me the extension in the lower octaves and the towers give me the punch in the middle, but the upper frequencies were muddy. I prefer Audyssey's room correction on the upper frequencies over direct.

I prefer Audyssey's eq settings when I'm running the subs with the towers, but I feel like the towers have more to add from what I hear in direct mode and I don't know how to get it dialed in. I do still have that unopened 2x4 MiniDSP HD... Is this a case of me preferring a hump in the mid-lower range that would not measure flat or do in need to just stfu and be happy with what I have?

If the editor app worked like it was supposed to, this could even be something fun for me to experiment with.

What do you have the crossover setting for the towers set at?

 

[Andrein]

My system used to be little bit muddy with crossover at 80hz. 60hz or 50hz sounds much better. Also i like to have slight rise in 40-60hz region. Not sure if this is just my hearing limitation but when i raise these freqs by 3db it changes a lot for me. My proacs have that rise themselves. When i tried to eq that band i did not like the result.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So what seems to be the best overall mode?

Audyssey Bypass L/R + Dynamic EQ (Reference 0dB) ?

Played around with all XO like 40Hz vs 60Hz vs 80Hz vs 100Hz vs 120Hz?

Compared Bass mode LFE vs LFE+Main?

Other music materials/versions sound better?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Basically, I like Audyssey's room correction, but it makes my towers sound anemic in the bass department.

If Audyssey gives you the best sound, but lacking in the tower bass, then I think you just need to use the subs for the bass. Just let the tower sound their best for the midrange and treble. That's salient. And let the subs handle the bass.

 

[Pogre]

What do you have the crossover setting for the towers set at?

90hz right now. I've been experimenting tho.

My system used to be little bit muddy with crossover at 80hz. 60hz or 50hz sounds much better. Also i like to have slight rise in 40-60hz region. Not sure if this is just my hearing limitation but when i raise these freqs by 3db it changes a lot for me. My proacs have that rise themselves. When i tried to eq that band i did not like the result.

If I were to guess that's the frequency range I'm noticing from my towers in direct mode that I like. That's pretty much all I like about direct mode or bypass tho.

So what seems to be the best overall mode?

Audyssey Bypass L/R + Dynamic EQ (Reference 0dB) ?

Played around with all XO like 40Hz vs 60Hz vs 80Hz vs 100Hz vs 120Hz?

Compared Bass mode LFE vs LFE+Main?

Other music materials/versions sound better?

MultEQ XT32 flat, Dynamic EQ on.

Tried Audyssey Bypass L/R + Dynamic eq. Bass from the towers was overwhelming and boomy. Plugging the ports on them tightened things up, but overall sounded muddy compared to flat. In that mode setting the crossover at 40hz sounded best.

Played around with the xover settings up to 120hz. The lower I set the crossover the weaker my bass gets. I've been setting it at 90hz.

I did not try LFE vs LFE + Main. I'll give that a go.

Where I really notice the difference is with drum kicks and stuff that's faster. My subs do much better in the lower octaves with deep, smooth bass. I believe that would be described as my towers being better with transients? They do dig pretty deep and they're tighter than the subs (though they definitely don't dig as deep as the subs).

If Audyssey gives you the best sound, but lacking in the tower bass, then I think you just need to use the subs for the bass. Just let the tower sound their best for the midrange and treble. That's salient. And let the subs handle the bass.

And that's exactly what I'm doing now. Ideally I would like to let the towers play down to 40 or 50hz and let my subs just fill in the very bottom. L/R Bypass will give me that, sort of, but I dont like the way it sounds overall. And like I said, Audyssey sounds better, but neuters my towers' bass capabilities.

Damn you D&M! This is a perfect application for your editor app if it actually worked!

 

[TLS Guy]

I have been experimenting with direct, pure direct and l/r bypass on Audyssey a lot lately. I like some things about direct or bypass and I also like things that Audyssey does. I can't seem to get the best of both at the same time tho.

When I'm in direct mode I get more of that mid bass that kicks you in the chest from my towers, which I like, but the rest just doesn't sound as good to me as having Audyssey enabled. Basically, I like Audyssey's room correction, but it makes my towers sound anemic in the bass department. Even at full range. If I turn the subs off and set the towers to full range my low end just disappears.

In direct mode there's actually too much bass (no sub, just towers). It gets a little muddy and a lot boomy. Plugging the ports on the towers tames it down and I still get that punch. I tried l/r bypass in the Audyssey settings and set the crossover at 40hz and it sounded pretty good. The Hsu's were giving me the extension in the lower octaves and the towers give me the punch in the middle, but the upper frequencies were muddy. I prefer Audyssey's room correction on the upper frequencies over direct.

I prefer Audyssey's eq settings when I'm running the subs with the towers, but I feel like the towers have more to add from what I hear in direct mode and I don't know how to get it dialed in. I do still have that unopened 2x4 MiniDSP HD... Is this a case of me preferring a hump in the mid-lower range that would not measure flat or do I need to just stfu and be happy with what I have?

If the editor app worked like it was supposed to, this could even be something fun for me to experiment with.

*Edit: I've tried turning dynamic eq on and off with all of the different modes I experimented with. Turning it on in l/r bypass made the bass explode when I didn't plug the ports. It was quite impressive actually. I believe SVS when they claim these towers dig down into the upper 20's, no problem.

What are you speakers, and what are your room dimensions? Your problem is one or both.
I hate what Audyssey does, and it is not a sensible way of improving things.

Somehow you have to get things right without having to use Eq.

That may mean, and usually does, a speaker change, and for bad rooms, room treatment.

I have to say most rooms are actually pretty reasonable. The problem you describe, is usually high Q resonant speakers, often exacerbating existing room problems.

I have heard one set of SVS towers and I thought them boomy. I could not personally tolerate them.

 

[ski2xblack]

You can also trim the DynamicEQ to be more or less pronounced, which may be a better approach than plugging ports.

I suspect that between finding the right hp/lp filter settings, you could also consider moving the subs around the room. They may not be in optimal locations up front like you have them, in terms of modal smoothing. Your gear is quite capable, it's just a matter of getting it all coupled to your room's acoustics more effectively (no trivial task). I think you'll probably get better results with the higher crossover settings; the "drum kicks and stuff that's faster" are higher frequencies, and the higher crossover points will increase dynamic range and reduce IM, both desirable.

Also, the higher crossover settings may help sidestep some of the bonky bass behavior of the lower response of your towers. Blending ported mains with subs is always trickier, so it's a good idea to cross them over at least a full octave if not more above their inherent roll-off. If your Ultras go to 40hz on their own, stick with 80hz or higher hpf settings.

If you have REW, it can greatly facilitate finding the best filter and phase settings, before Audyssey gets it's dirty little fingers on things.

 

[pewternhrata]

How far off the back wall are your towers? I'm still loving my bookshelfs and def jealous, I want towers now. I've noticed that these speakers are very 'picky' with placement. If I move them even 6" the soundstage changes, low end can get very muddy/boomy. I set them where I would prefer them to be then walked all over the room, even right up beside them, was crazy how different spots were smooth and crisp, then 2 feet over it was all muddy. I have my xover at 80, both speakers about 2' off back and side walls, almost facing straight out. I have a Dayton sub1200 and it's working phenomenal right now, couldn't be happier. Took me a few days with listening and making small changes with placement (toe in and distant off back wall/side wall)

 

[Andrein]

I think 90hz is too high for svs towers. They will play cleaner in 60-90 region than subs. From what i tried if you leave too much to subs they can become boomy. If you afraid of loosing some bass after lowering xrossover freq then maybe you would need to tweak eq after that. Or it is just a matter of getting used to. Try to leave 60hz for a couple of days and then make your decission.

 

[Pogre]

What are you speakers, and what are your room dimensions? Your problem is one or both.
I hate what Audyssey does, and it is not a sensible way of improving things.

Somehow you have to get things right without having to use Eq.

That may mean, and usually does, a speaker change, and for bad rooms, room treatment.

I have to say most rooms are actually pretty reasonable. The problem you describe, is usually high Q resonant speakers, often exacerbating existing room problems.

I have heard one set of SVS towers and I thought them boomy. I could not personally tolerate them.

Lol. Well I find them more than tolerable! I know where you're coming from tho. They are boomy if I don't plug the ports in direct mode or tame them with Audyssey.

There's no boom (or much of any other kind of bass) at all plugged or unplugged when Audyssey is engaged. That extra punch in direct/bypass is accompanied by some bloat. That could just be the nature of things and I can't have both, and just to be clear, I'm splitting hairs here and am pretty happy with my system the way it is. I'm just trying to get that little extra punch I get in the mid to upper bass in direct mode with Audyssey engaged. I might not even have reasonable expectations.

Speaker change ain't gonna happen, but I'm beginning to think maybe getting the subs off the front wall might improve things. My subs are right beside the towers and one of the woofers on the side of each tower fires directly into the side of each sub. I'm thinkin giving them some more space and letting them breathe a little would help things.

You can also trim the DynamicEQ to be more or less pronounced, which may be a better approach than plugging ports.

I suspect that between finding the right hp/lp filter settings, you could also consider moving the subs around the room. They may not be in optimal locations up front like you have them, in terms of modal smoothing. Your gear is quite capable, it's just a matter of getting it all coupled to your room's acoustics more effectively (no trivial task). I think you'll probably get better results with the higher crossover settings; the "drum kicks and stuff that's faster" are higher frequencies, and the higher crossover points will increase dynamic range and reduce IM, both desirable.

Also, the higher crossover settings may help sidestep some of the bonky bass behavior of the lower response of your towers. Blending ported mains with subs is always trickier, so it's a good idea to cross them over at least a full octave if not more above their inherent roll-off. If your Ultras go to 40hz on their own, stick with 80hz or higher hpf settings.

If you have REW, it can greatly facilitate finding the best filter and phase settings, before Audyssey gets it's dirty little fingers on things.

The Ultras claim down to 28hz and from what i heard i believe it. I wouldn't even be thinking about this had I not listened to my towers in direct mode and heard what they can do when unshackled. I'm more impressed with their output below 80hz or so than I thought I would be. It's legit, deep bass. I would really like to utilize it with a lower crossover setting and let my subs just handle the lowest octaves.

I do have REW, a Umik mic and a 2x4 minidsp hd I could utilize. I haven't even opened the box the mini came in yet. I can take some full range sweeps with towers by themselves and with subs tomorrow morning in different modes with REW and post up my results here.

How far off the back wall are your towers? I'm still loving my bookshelfs and def jealous, I want towers now. I've noticed that these speakers are very 'picky' with placement. If I move them even 6" the soundstage changes, low end can get very muddy/boomy. I set them where I would prefer them to be then walked all over the room, even right up beside them, was crazy how different spots were smooth and crisp, then 2 feet over it was all muddy. I have my xover at 80, both speakers about 2' off back and side walls, almost facing straight out. I have a Dayton sub1200 and it's working phenomenal right now, couldn't be happier. Took me a few days with listening and making small changes with placement (toe in and distant off back wall/side wall)

22 1/2 inches from the back wall. There is a window behind each speaker and the left speaker is 18" from a boundary, to the left. There's a sliding glass door right there too. I agree with you and @ski2xblack in that there are probably some opportunities with different positioning, but my speakers are pretty much stuck there. About all I could do is move them closer together or move the seating back. I sit 13' away from them and they're 11' apart so I'm not quite equilateral now as it is.

I think 90hz is too high for svs towers. They will play cleaner in 60-90 region than subs. From what i tried if you leave too much to subs they can become boomy. If you afraid of loosing some bass after lowering xrossover freq then maybe you would need to tweak eq after that. Or it is just a matter of getting used to. Try to leave 60hz for a couple of days and then make your decission.

I've tried lower crossover settings and there's just nothing above (at least for my tastes) the crossover point in the bass dept unless I'm in direct or bypass mode.

 

[Pogre]

No more massive multi quotes! That was more confusing than I thought it would be! phew

 

[TLS Guy]

ski2xblack makes a good point. Integrating subs with ported speakers is not easy. The system was designed to be used with sealed speakers, that roll off second order and not fourth as ported ones do.

The other issue is that if you plug ports in a ported enclosure, the enclosure is too big and you are generally using drivers not optimal for sealed configuration.

The other problem is that manufacturers play marketing games more often than not. One of the biggest sins is trying to get the lowest F3 compared to competitors. In ported enclosures the alignment that gives the lowest F3 is not the flatest or most optimal response.

I always aim for the optimal response and not the deepest extension.

I would think that given your issues I would cross your speakers over at 60 Hz and set the subs for the smoothest response.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And that's exactly what I'm doing now. Ideally I would like to let the towers play down to 40 or 50hz and let my subs just fill in the very bottom. L/R Bypass will give me that, sort of, but I dont like the way it sounds overall. And like I said, Audyssey sounds better, but neuters my towers' bass capabilities.

Every situation is different.

Don't feel so bad. Don't feel like you are cheating the towers and taking away their glory.

When I owned the Salon2, B&W 802D2, Orion 3.2.1, Phil3, I always preferred the subwoofer bass over the bass from the towers. So I always ended up setting all of these towers to SMALL and the XO to 100Hz (or was it 120Hz? ).

But that's me. Everyone is different.

There is a good reason a lot of guys prefer using subwoofers even with full-range towers.

We all know that the bass from towers are no match for the bass from the subwoofers.

And that's why Shady and I often recommend to people to just put dynamic monitors atop subwoofers to create their own modular towers.

Let the Monitors handle the salient treble and midrange; that's their specialty. And let the Subs handle the bass; that's their specialty.

 

[PENG]

What are you speakers, and what are your room dimensions? Your problem is one or both.
I hate what Audyssey does, and it is not a sensible way of improving things.

Somehow you have to get things right without having to use Eq.

That may mean, and usually does, a speaker change, and for bad rooms, room treatment.

I have to say most rooms are actually pretty reasonable. The problem you describe, is usually high Q resonant speakers, often exacerbating existing room problems.

I have heard one set of SVS towers and I thought them boomy. I could not personally tolerate them.

Have you tried XT32 Sub EQ HT? I can tell you it does a much better job than the XT version let alone MultEQ that your AV8003, if that's you reference point.

 

[PENG]

When experimenting your settings, did you stick with the same music ? If not, I think you should, even if it is hard to listen to the same song over and over.

Since you mention kick drum, the article link below may help.

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/making-kick-drum-bass-line-sit-nicely-together-mix/

Although it depends mostly on the mix, if the editor app works, you would have some flexibility.

 

[TheWarrior]

Audyssey relies on a cheap omni mic to take listening position measurements that somehow determine what is going on in a room of unknown size, despite that room modes directly correlate to room dimensions. Below 200 hz the room is firmly in control of what you can hear, where and when. Unfortunately 'room correction' is the easy solution so as long as people can extract some good from it, they are satisfied.

Since you are not, all I can recommend is go grab Floyd Toole's third edition of Sound Reproduction (should be released today!) and start studying. Learn to map out your room's dimensions so you can configure each sub in it's ideal location to constructively/destructively drive all your standing waves. You have a 2x4, so Floyd can teach you real quickly to combine peak frequency (both measured peaks and nulls are resonances), the Q (bandwidth) of each resonance (count each Hz wide the peak/dip is) and then the amplitude (peak = reduce amplitude/ null = increase amplitude, matched to the relative level). Those 3 parameters will create a minidsp filter.

I'll be working on mine today, too!

 

[2channel lover]

I have been experimenting with direct, pure direct and l/r bypass on Audyssey a lot lately. I like some things about direct or bypass and I also like things that Audyssey does. I can't seem to get the best of both at the same time tho.

When I'm in direct mode I get more of that mid bass that kicks you in the chest from my towers, which I like, but the rest just doesn't sound as good to me as having Audyssey enabled. Basically, I like Audyssey's room correction, but it makes my towers sound anemic in the bass department. Even at full range. If I turn the subs off and set the towers to full range my low end just disappears.

In direct mode there's actually too much bass (no sub, just towers). It gets a little muddy and a lot boomy. Plugging the ports on the towers tames it down and I still get that punch. I tried l/r bypass in the Audyssey settings and set the crossover at 40hz and it sounded pretty good.

I prefer Audyssey's eq settings when I'm running the subs with the towers, but I feel like the towers have more to add from what I hear in direct mode and I don't know how to get it dialed in. It was quite impressive actually. I believe SVS when they claim these towers dig down into the upper 20's, no problem.

I've done some playing around with the B&Ws and the HSUs trying to find that perfect blend...the 804s as you know I've had a long time...I've played them 2.0 for a long time as well...they're not bass heavy speakers, the floor is around 38, but they do a really good job in that 50-80 Hz range on the low end. I've tried crossing over @ 60, & 80...I prefer 60 for most music and 80 for movies.

I just got a SACD Pacquito D'Rivera...a mix of big band and Cuban jazz...14 pc band...it's a real workout for your speakers...the opening track has this Bassoon playing and at 60, it's playing through the mains...great detail for those low notes...@ 80 the HSUs pick it up...pretty good, but not as clean as the B&Ws...point is I get what you're trying to do.

That's a weird the upper frequencies were muddy when you got the mid bass exposed. Given this is direct mode where you are having the issues, it's sounds like something in the speaker crossover is not quite right.

 

[Pogre]

Every situation is different.

Don't feel so bad. Don't feel like you are cheating the towers and taking away their glory.

And that's why Shady and I often recommend to people to just put dynamic monitors atop subwoofers to create their own modular towers.

Let the Monitors handle the salient treble and midrange; that's their specialty. And let the Subs handle the bass; that's their specialty.

I've been avoiding saying that it bugs me that I feel like I'm cheating my towers and taking away their glory, but you pretty much nailed it. I do recommend bookshelves with a sub a lot too but I wanted towers!

I've done some playing around with the B&Ws and the HSUs trying to find that perfect blend...the 804s as you know I've had a long time...I've played them 2.0 for a long time as well...they're not bass heavy speakers, the floor is around 38, but they do a really good job in that 50-80 Hz range on the low end. I've tried crossing over @ 60, & 80...I prefer 60 for most music and 80 for movies.

I just got a SACD Pacquito D'Rivera...a mix of big band and Cuban jazz...14 pc band...it's a real workout for your speakers...the opening track has this Bassoon playing and at 60, it's playing through the mains...great detail for those low notes...@ 80 the HSUs pick it up...pretty good, but not as clean as the B&Ws...point is I get what you're trying to do.

That's a weird the upper frequencies were muddy when you got the mid bass exposed. Given this is direct mode where you are having the issues, it's sounds like something in the speaker crossover is not quite right.

I really don't think it's the crossovers in the speakers. As far as the upper frequencies, Audyssey bumps my treble up a little and I like that. In direct mode there's no eq'ing at all so I'm getting the bad with the good is how I'm looking at it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've been avoiding saying that it bugs me that I feel like I'm cheating my towers and taking away their glory, but you pretty much nailed it. I do recommend bookshelves with a sub a lot too but I wanted towers!

I think it's natural to think that way and I think many people feel exactly the same way.

You spent good money for full-range towers, darn it! So now you must use them full-range!

Well, even if we don't use towers completely full-range, I think we can still gain DYNAMICS and efficiency over most bookshelf/monitors (unless the monitors are big bad ones). So it may be possible to get better SQ using towers + subs vs monitors + subs.