Incorporating MiniDSP With Audyssey XT32

[MrBoat]

Are you sure this is not a source/genre issue? Some harder hitting, mainstream genres are not suited for revealing speakers, period. Much of the exercise we see these days with tuning a system ends up more about fixing the music than the actual hardware.

IME, Pure Direct is really only suited for well recorded music and with that it can be a wonderful thing. I use PD but with a manual EQ and very little of it. The music I tend to listen to has room to experiment with enhancement based mostly on preference and little in the way of repair.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Hey poges, remember me? Lol
Have you tried moving your LP, just as an experiment? The room is definitely responsible for peaks and nulls, and when you start moving sound sources and LP those peaks and valleys become kind of a moving target. Since you can't move your speakers, grab a chair that moves easily and try moving fore and aft the LP while listening to material that will be obvious to what your looking for. Just an id'r.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I use Direct mode & LFE+Main when I sing karaoke.

I use Audyssey Flat or Bypass L/R + Dynamic EQ when I listen to music or watch videos.

 

[2channel lover]

I've been avoiding saying that it bugs me that I feel like I'm cheating my towers and taking away their glory, but you pretty much nailed it. I do recommend bookshelves with a sub a lot too but I wanted towers!

I really don't think it's the crossovers in the speakers. As far as the upper frequencies, Audyssey bumps my treble up a little and I like that. In direct mode there's no eq'ing at all so I'm getting the bad with the good is how I'm looking at it.

Exactly...that's what I was trying to say...if there's something you don't like about a speaker in direct mode...whatever the cause is rests within the makeup of the speaker. Unless that price is in the $10k range, in building speakers for a pricepoint, there's almost always a compromise somewhere.

I ordered a pr of Salk Song 3-As...the big difference from the Song 3 is the Accuton mid driver. I was recently asking Jim Salk why didn't he put the Accuton mid driver in the Song 3 from the beginning...he said it would not have hit the price point he was shooting for...<$3k

It probably was not crossover related like you said. I said crossovers because I dealt with something similar back when I bought the B&Ws...the 803 was the highly touted the "affordable" beast underneath the 802....yes, it had great low end, but the mid bass, mids and high end didn't sound as clean as the 804. The sales guy was the owner's son. An engineering major, if he didn't know what he was talking about about he knew the lingo...he felt like the crossovers in the 803 were not tuned right or not matched well with the drivers....something to that effect.

But...given you were just farting around...you can always go back to what wasn't broken....

 

[Pogre]

Exactly...that's what I was trying to say...if there's something you don't like about a speaker in direct mode...whatever the cause is rests within the makeup of the speaker. Unless that price is in the $10k range, in building speakers for a pricepoint, there's almost always a compromise somewhere.

I ordered a pr of Salk Song 3-As...the big difference from the Song 3 is the Accuton mid driver. I was recently asking Jim Salk why didn't he put the Accuton mid driver in the Song 3 from the beginning...he said it would not have hit the price point he was shooting for...<$3k

It probably was not crossover related like you said. I said crossovers because I dealt with something similar back when I bought the B&Ws...the 803 was the highly touted the "affordable" beast underneath the 802....yes, it had great low end, but the mid bass, mids and high end didn't sound as clean as the 804. The sales guy was the owner's son. An engineering major, if he didn't know what he was talking about about he knew the lingo...he felt like the crossovers in the 803 were not tuned right or not matched well with the drivers....something to that effect.

But...given you were just farting around...you can always go back to what wasn't broken....

I think it has a lot more to do with my room and Audyssey than faulty crossovers. I've had one of my speakers apart. They're using high quality parts and they look beautiful. I know the speakers aren't hand made to order, but 2k isn't throw away money for a speaker either. I'm sure the tolerances on performance and build quality is very unforgiving.

I've heard the Songtowers and was very impressed. They're great speakers and I wouldn't be upset to have them as my mains at all, but I still love my Ultras. The 3A's have the Raal tweeters though, right? I'd like to audition those sometime.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go looking for more problems that aren't really problems...

 

[TLS Guy]

I have not really addressed this before, as there has not been much point as users as rule can't handle this.

Boominess is such a common problem, that has a multitude of causes.

One of the issues not talked about is baffle step compensation, the transition from half to full space.

Now I have found that the calculated correct value is not correct for most rooms and position in the room.

I have found it is usually excessive as the speaker arrives. There is highly significant variability according to room and above all the speaker's immediate environment.

I have always tweaked my crossovers to position. When I did recordings one of my location monitor pairs which are now surrounds has a three position switch to adjust BSC on the fly.

My front three have active crossovers and I have designed them so that BSC can be easily set by potentiometers.

I never have to fiddle with it, once it is right for the speaker at that location. It never needs fiddling with.

The problem is that I have found that BSC required is all over the map. One thing I'm certain of is that BSC as speakers come is excessive as a rule, although correct by design and for an anechoic chamber.

This may be one reason why bookshelf speakers are favored by some. Small bookshelves are as a rule BSC deficient due to power and excursion limitations. I suspect this suits a lot of rooms, especially small ones, were I believe this issue is a particular problem.

I find it interesting that as far as I know I seem to alone in addressing this situation.

 

[Bucknekked]

Since you are not, all I can recommend is go grab Floyd Toole's third edition of Sound Reproduction (should be released today!) and start studying.

I tried to order the 3rd edition book today from Amazon. It says its not yet available although it lists an August 10th release date. I put in a pre-order anyway and it will arrive when it arrives. Thanks for the heads up on the new release. I've always wanted to thank Floyd Toole for his work and comments. I can't think of a more sincere way to say thanks for all the good work than to actually buy one of his books.

 

[Blue Dude]

You can have accurate bass, or thumpy chest-kicking bass from your towers, but not both. Towers are rarely optimally placed for accurate bass, which is why it's recommended to set them with a 80 Hz or higher crossover and place adequate subs in optimal locations. You're not "cheating" the towers by doing this, because science. It's just extremely difficult to manage low frequency waves and also optimize imaging and soundstage from the same locations.

If you just want to get the kick, and leave Audyssey engaged, just use stereo mode and temporarily set your mains to "large", which defeats the crossover. I wouldn't leave it there for every application, but it's your system.

 

[TLS Guy]

You can have accurate bass, or thumpy chest-kicking bass from your towers, but not both. Towers are rarely optimally placed for accurate bass, which is why it's recommended to set them with a 80 Hz or higher crossover and place adequate subs in optimal locations. You're not "cheating" the towers by doing this, because science. It's just extremely difficult to manage low frequency waves and also optimize imaging and soundstage from the same locations.

If you just want to get the kick, and leave Audyssey engaged, just use stereo mode and temporarily set your mains to "large", which defeats the crossover. I wouldn't leave it there for every application, but it's your system.

I have both!

 

[Bucknekked]

I have both!

TLS Guy
I've only read your posts and taken your guided tour of systems on my computer. From everything I've seen and read, I wouldn't doubt for a second your systems thump when they should and purr when they should. I can only sit here and marvel at what you have put together and your journey in getting there.

 

[Pogre]

You can have accurate bass, or thumpy chest-kicking bass from your towers, but not both. Towers are rarely optimally placed for accurate bass, which is why it's recommended to set them with a 80 Hz or higher crossover and place adequate subs in optimal locations. You're not "cheating" the towers by doing this, because science. It's just extremely difficult to manage low frequency waves and also optimize imaging and soundstage from the same locations.

If you just want to get the kick, and leave Audyssey engaged, just use stereo mode and temporarily set your mains to "large", which defeats the crossover. I wouldn't leave it there for every application, but it's your system.

Ah, but setting my mains to large while Audyssey is engaged neuters my bass response. I took some measurements and the results are telling.

Both of these are an average of six measurements I took in and around my chair in direct mode.

This is in direct mode with the ports open. You can see the huge spike in the frequency range I'm on about.

This is with the ports plugged in direct mode.

Here's the overlay of the 2. Very similar, but of course the with the ports plugged it's a little tamer. I've come to the conclusion that what I'm after just isn't gonna happen. I can't have a "flat" response and that huge spike at the same time.

 

[KEW]

Ah, but setting my mains to large while Audyssey is engaged neuters my bass response. I took some measurements and the results are telling.

Both of these are an average of six measurements I took in and around my chair in direct mode.

View attachment 21876
This is in direct mode with the ports open. You can see the huge spike in the frequency range I'm on about.

View attachment 21877
This is with the ports plugged in direct mode.

View attachment 21878
Here's the overlay of the 2. Very similar, but of course the with the ports plugged it's a little tamer. I've come to the conclusion that what I'm after just isn't gonna happen. I can't have a "flat" response and that huge spike at the same time.

Looks like you are getting a 17-20dB emphasis on bass at 50 & 70 Hz. That exceeds the limits of what Audyssey will correct so I am curious what it does!
Can you post (and overlay) what "w/Audyssey" looks like?

 

[Pogre]

Can you post (and overlay) what "w/Audyssey" looks like?

I'm setting up for that right now. I've pretty much placebo'd myself into loving my system again based on those measurements...

I'll post more measurements when I'm done.

 

[Blue Dude]

I have both!

Because you, sir, are an AV god. I was speaking of mere mortals.

 

[Blue Dude]

Ah, but setting my mains to large while Audyssey is engaged neuters my bass response. I took some measurements and the results are telling.

Interesting that Audyssey rolls off your bass that much. I was just trying to defeat the bass management.

 

[Pogre]

Interesting that Audyssey rolls off your bass that much. I was just trying to defeat the bass management.

I don't think it's that now. I'm just a bass whore. But there is a nasty dip in the range where I think I'm missing some punch with Audyssey on and my towers are set to large.

Looks like you are getting a 17-20dB emphasis on bass at 50 & 70 Hz. That exceeds the limits of what Audyssey will correct so I am curious what it does!
Can you post (and overlay) what "w/Audyssey" looks like?

Per your request Kurt!

This is direct overlayed with Audyssey on, Flat, DEQ on, reference offset -5db.

This is direct overlayed with Audyssey on, Flat, DEQ off, Reference Offset -5db.

These last 2 are the same measurements, just by themselves. You can see them a little better.

 

[Pogre]

A couple more.

This is with my sub, crossover 80hz, one port plugged, EQ1 (deep extension mode) and no bump to the sub channel

And here is where I have it set normally. I took this set of measurements with both ports open on my subs, EQ2 (More headroom mode) and the bump I like to give to the sub channel. I'm sure TLS would find it abominable...

 

[KEW]

So, it appears that when Audyssey suppresses the spikes, it also indiscriminately suppresses the signal at 40Hz and 70Hz and they become deficient whereas they previously were about where you would want them!
So the idea is you may be able to generally smooth out the wild swings between 40, 50, 60, 70, and 80Hz using DSP and then Audyssey.
@ATLAudio found that using the miniDSP to clean up some of the issues beforehand helped Audyssey to do a better job. I do not know enough details of his experience to know if your situation is analogous, but hopefully he can chime in sometime tomorrow and let us know.

 

[Pogre]

So, it appears that when Audyssey suppresses the spikes, it also indiscriminately suppresses the signal at 40Hz and 70Hz and they become deficient whereas they previously were about where you would want them!
So the idea is you may be able to generally smooth out the wild swings between 40, 50, 60, 70, and 80Hz using DSP and the Audyssey.
@ATLAudio found that using the miniDSP to clean up some of the issues beforehand helped Audyssey to do a better job. I do not know enough details of his experience to know if your situation is analogous, but hopefully he can chime in sometime tomorrow and let us know.

That's who I was thinking of! I couldn't remember his name. Thanks for tagging him. I have a feeling he might be really helpful in my situation.

Thanks too for the interpretation. I'm still training my eyes to see things.

 

[MrBoat]

In PD, and since my sub is close to my mains, I set the sub to roll off at roughly 1.25-1.5 times my main speakers lowest stated measurement via the sub amp's DSP. Then I turn the sub's gain down accordingly by ear to account for room gain, which is a lot in my case. This is also why I chose a smaller, 12" subwoofer driver in a sealed enclosure. My main speakers also have 12" woofers and this goes completely against current prescriptions for a correct match but it manages to be more than enough of the 'right kind' of bass for my room.

A friend of mine brought over a ported, 15" sub before I built mine and by his preference, it sounded 'blappy' to my ear and I could barely distinguish lower bass guitar notes from rumble effects in theater use and yet he loved it rather obnoxious like that. That is what initially turned me off to the notion of using a subwoofer and sticking to being a die-hard, 3-way speaker only type of 2 channel listener. I have a set of JBL 3-way speakers with 12" woofers and the bass is some of the best I have heard in this room. To the point (on some music such as classic, or hard rock) where I don't care about the modern notions of 3 way speakers not being AC ( Audiophilically Correct). Some key hints being, something like the familiar and rather tasteful bass line in Elton John's, "Rocket Man," as an example.

We often hear the best idea is to relieve the main speakers of bass duty and send the lower frequencies to the subwoofer, which often times, is a single driver. At 80hz and above in some cases, and now we have a single driver handling more than just sub bass and up into the mid-bass frequencies and this seems a rather erroneous trade off to me. It seems if there is both mid-bass and sub-bass happening at the same time, we're kind of inflicting the same type of condition on another driver that we are trying to relieve from the mains, albeit different frequencies. I know this is wrong because the audiophiles tell me so and why but, I have heard so many systems with music with great low end, that manages to wash out the mid bass, at least to some extent, and it's usually that from the bass guitar or some of that mid-bass ambience. It makes me wonder how many dimensions of the overall soundstage are these measurements actually taking into account.

Finally, I know I am wrong about this and when I read why I am wrong, I understand why, technically. But when someone plays back music I am ultimately familiar with that they have calibrated with auto EQ and I am missing key bits and they just dismiss it as some artifact of my unwashed listening habits (which has included a lot of live music), I have to question their experience. Not with the equipment, so much as the music itself.