The Audio Path In Consumer-Grade Products

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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks, so preout of that unit is 2V, 2.7V max., not bad but still wishy washy.. no ref to rms, peak, load impedance, THD etc. Bottom line, I need to see decent bench test measurements such as Gene's and AVtech's (stopped since 2014), or at least Stereophile's before I buy anything nowadays.:D
Yeah, when I read the specs on both (I ordered them at the same time) I thought the two units would be compatible. The amp has a 28KOhm input impedance (lowish, but nothing drastic), the 975 is rated at 2.7v at the outputs, and the AT602 is actually only rated at 60W/ch continuous into 8 ohms, so I thought they must be compatible. But they weren't. The Outlaw didn't drive the ATI to sufficient volume with the JBL monitors I used to use (82db/2.83v/1m, I think). I suspect the specs are incorrect on one of these components.
 
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<eargiant

Senior Audioholic
Are you guys good at reading schematics to determine the types of things the author of the article was discussing?

If so I'd like to provide the schematics of my old amp. I'm very curious to see what some of those specs & design features would be on this thing in comparison to the Marantz he has.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yeah, when I read the specs on both (I ordered them at the same time) I thought the two units would be compatible. The amp has a 28KOhm input impedance (lowish, but nothing drastic), the 975 is rated at 2.7v at the outputs, and the AT602 is actually only rated at 60W/ch continuous into 8 ohms, so I thought they must be compatible. But they weren't. The Outlaw didn't drive the ATI to sufficient volume with the JBL monitors I used to use (82/db/2.83v, I think). I suspect the specs are incorrect on one of these components.
The ATI spec is also confusing, see page 11 in the manual linked below (surely you have read it right?)

http://www.ati-amp.com/manuals/at1202manual.pdf

-The following applies to all channels being driven simultaneously with 8 ohm loads and an input sensitivity of 28dB gain unless otherwise specified.

-Input Sensitivity for Full Rated Power 0.9 Volts

-Gain Voltage gain of 24dB

The fact is, if the V gain is in fact 24dB, you need 1.4V rms to get just over 60W, or about 0.9V if the gain is 28dB. Page 11 got it all covered!!:D

I am sure you have a good rms meter that can also measure peak, so please take some measurements of Vin and Vout and share the results.:D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
If we throw my Denon AVR in the mix against the Benchmark, you'd better get ready to pay up. :D
Your Denon AVR? I believe you, but if I throw in mine I am quite sure you are the one who need to be ready.:D:D I know my is in top condition..
 
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<eargiant

Senior Audioholic
Your Denon AVR? I believe you, but if I throw in mine I am quite sure you are the one who need to be ready.:D:D I know my is in top condition..
Should I bring 2 servings of crow? ;)

All in good fun man.:D
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
Can someone knowledgeable in subjective testing go to <eargiants home, bring a $300 AVR, voltage-match it against his Benchmark at a volume of his choosing provided no clipping is taking place, double-blind, or at the very least single blind?

He can listen to his own music, using his own speakers, but he won't have any clues provided to him - can't peek and then "hear" his benchmark, must use ears only to discern "much" better sound. Should be a piece of cake for him.

Any takers? Would be even better to have this put on Youtube. If you were in Cape Town, South Africa I would make a trip and bring my equipment with, even borrow an inexpensive AVR to prove this point. Alas...
 
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<eargiant

Senior Audioholic
Can someone knowledgeable in subjective testing go to <eargiants home, bring a $300 AVR, voltage-match it against his Benchmark at a volume of his choosing provided no clipping is taking place, double-blind, or at the very least single blind?

He can listen to his own music, using his own speakers, but he won't have any clues provided to him - can't peek and then "hear" his benchmark, must use ears only to discern "much" better sound. Should be a piece of cake for him.

Any takers? Would be even better to have this put on Youtube. If you were in Cape Town, South Africa I would make a trip and bring my equipment with, even borrow an inexpensive AVR to prove this point. Alas...
How are you so confident I won't hear the difference? How do you know my listening skills are not on par with John Siau's ? Is it that you think he somehow got the testing protocols wrong or even worse, do you think he's cheating or lying?
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
How are you so confident I won't hear the difference? How do you know my listening skills are not on par with John Siau's ? Is it that you think he somehow got the testing protocols wrong or even worse, do you think he's cheating or lying?
Experience in subjective testing and the mountains of failed results from audiophiles over the decades.

I don't care about your claimed hearing skills. You could be a world famous golden-ear and I wouldn't care one whit. :) What I do care about is people supporting their claims. You demonstrating this allegedly inferior sound quality from an AVR is what I care about.

I would love to see the frightened look on your face when you are unable to ... peek, touch, know and expect that you are listening to an AVR and must discern sound quality purely based on your hearing alone.

I don't expect you will back up your hearing claims in any way, shape or form which is par for the course.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Can someone knowledgeable in subjective testing go to <eargiants home, bring a $300 AVR, voltage-match it against his Benchmark at a volume of his choosing provided no clipping is taking place, double-blind, or at the very least single blind?

He can listen to his own music, using his own speakers, but he won't have any clues provided to him - can't peek and then "hear" his benchmark, must use ears only to discern "much" better sound. Should be a piece of cake for him.

Any takers? Would be even better to have this put on Youtube. If you were in Cape Town, South Africa I would make a trip and bring my equipment with, even borrow an inexpensive AVR to prove this point. Alas...
To be honest, I am not so sure about a $300 AVR unless you meant a vintage one selling for cheap. I am however, very confident with my AVR-3805 base on measurements and comparison listening.
 
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<eargiant

Senior Audioholic
I would love to see the frightened look on your face when you are unable to ... peek, touch, know and expect that you are listening to an AVR and must discern sound quality purely based on your hearing alone.
As I would like to see yours :eek:, if I like John Siau got all 25 out of 25 trials correct.
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
To be honest, I am not so sure about a $300 AVR unless you meant a vintage one selling for cheap. I am however, very confident with my AVR-3805 base on measurements and comparison listening.
Are we talking new or second hand? An older Denon AVR-1200W will do. That's about +- 2 years old.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
It would be difficult to say that John Siau – VP and Director of Engineering at Benchmark Media Systems, Inc. – is an unbiased source of information.

How about a reliable 3rd party report that confirms any of this?
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
Let me get this straight. Their success rate was based on listening to a 1 kHz tone? :) As far as I can tell, no music was involved which is what actually matters.

That's hilarious.

Zero evidence to show that their amplifier sounds better/different in the "1st watt" listening to musical signals which is how the equipment will be used in reality. Hmmm...

Benchmark also say this :

If amplifier distortion is audible with a test tone, it may also be audible while playing music
LOL, "may"? Music is a masking source. Of course they wouldn't test actual music. Too bad you couldn't support the one claim that actually matters most for most people.

But at least the Benchmark sounds "better"/different using a 1 kHz tone!!! Bravo John! :rolleyes:
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
How are you so confident I won't hear the difference? How do you know my listening skills are not on par with John Siau's ? Is it that you think he somehow got the testing protocols wrong or even worse, do you think he's cheating or lying?
My problem with claims is that they are just claims. If you read other's such as
THIS, you may well be convinced that's the best out there too. There are many examples, just check out Nelson Pass's, John Curl's, and many more. There are many of those gurus and amps that sell for tons of money. http://www.milliondollarstereos.com/speakerlist.php?category=amps

You know by now I don't believe all amps sound the same, not without qualifiers, but one can go to the other extreme as well. There is no end to it if one believes in manufacturers claims. Think about this, rocket scientists don't succeed by just real world testing in the field even that is the final step. They learn/develop theories, do the design/calculations, experiments, validations, verification, and many more steps before test launching to prove that the product work as intended.

Back to audio, if amps all sound different base on mix and matching with other equipment as well as different people's individually unique hearing skills and preferences (such as the so called warm, cool, bright etc.) that are not easily measurable, how the heck did people like John Siau or John Curl design their products, whose ears/hearings skill/ability/preference would they base their design on? I would say their design parameters have to be based on just science, i.e. human hearing ability, noise, distortions, frequency response, power requirements, transient response, dynamic range etc, that's just logic. If the final products does well in all those categories, relative to normal human's hearing and discerning ability, then such products should, and will likely sound the same to normal people when used well within their specified limits, though the specs will not be exactly the same.
 
G

Goliath

Full Audioholic
It would be difficult to say that John Siau – VP and Director of Engineering at Benchmark Media Systems, Inc. – is an unbiased source of information.

How about a reliable 3rd party report that confirms any of this?
It wouldn't matter, because people don't listen to pure tones. It's far easier to detect all manner of sonic maladies with single tones that go completely unnoticed when listening to music.

Their testing is not representative of actual real-world use.
 
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