The Audio Path In Consumer-Grade Products

[Irvrobinson]

Benchmark really should consider packing a few more of those noisy complex circuits and parts under the hood. Bass management and PEQ would be a worthy trade-off for raising the noise floor, IMO. They have plenty of wiggle room, starting from -132db. Am I off my rocker for thinking so? They do that and I'll take mine in black, svp. Perfect for the more sensitive speakers in my collection.

Have you seen a Benchmark Media preamp-DAC? They think analog inputs are a big feature.

 

[<eargiant]

Just answer the question for jury!

Is Dynamic Range the SAME THING as Signal-to-Noise-Ratio?

Yes or No?

If NO, then is it true that the $300 Yamaha has BETTER A-Wt SNR than the $3,000 Benchmark ?

Is -110dBA better than -108dBA?

I rest my case.

oh my...

 

[ski2xblack]

I don't care about analog inputs, but on the other side they would need to find space for analog outputs for hp and lp signals, which would be a tight fit on such small chassis.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can tell when an amp/pre combo has a very high SNR.

Are you joking?

Are you saying that you can HEAR the difference between a SNR of -130dB vs -100dB ?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

oh my...

What kind of rebuttal is that?

 

[ski2xblack]

Hey, where's TLSguy? Per the product hype page, this Benchmark amp seems to have borrowed the feed-forward error correction trick from the Quad amps. Now I'm more curious. I'm not sold on hyped up (or even legitimate) ridiculous s/n specs beyond the level of a fart in a hurricane, but if it's a current dumper with class A output, that's a bit more interesting.

 

[<eargiant]

What kind of rebuttal is that?

Again, just order the units and the debate will end.

 

[ski2xblack]

eargiant, did you start the thread for the sake of discussion or just to sell stuff? By the way, "buy and try" is not the preferred method in these parts.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Hey, where's TLSguy? Per the product hype page, this Benchmark amp seems to have borrowed the feed-forward error correction trick from the Quad amps. Now I'm more curious. I'm not sold on hyped up (or even legitimate) ridiculous s/n specs beyond the level of a fart in a hurricane, but if it's a current dumper with class A output, that's a bit more interesting.

The THX patent (by Peter Garde) claims to be a high-efficiency variant on Peter Walker's original concept, which they claim was specifically not high efficiency. Both patents have lapsed, so anyone can build amplifiers using either concept. Nelson Pass also patented a variation on Walker's scheme using cascode connection for the output transistors he called "Stasis" designs.

Mark will be appalled, but that's the US patent system for ya.

The Benchmark amp is small and lightweight. Actually, the form factor always struck me as somewhat of an annoyance.

 

[<eargiant]

eargiant, did you start the thread for the sake of discussion or just to sell stuff? By the way, "buy and try" is not the preferred method in these parts.

Of course it was to discuss and not to sell but there comes a point where statements are so ridiculous that a person can choose not to entertain them. You know what they say about answering foolish arguments right?

IMO the discussion was going really well and hopefully will continue to do so. With that said, I refuse to waste a single keystroke "discussing" such an asinine assertion as was made using a $300 Yamaha AVR. At that point I say we can all save ourselves the time and agony of an endless courtroom debate if one just puts their money where their mouth is and tries the Benchmark so that they can have hands on experience and then they can let me know if they continue to feel the same way about the assertion that was made.

 

[MrBoat]

Whenever I read these threads that speak in thousands of $ for meager solutions to borderline imaginary conditions, I fast forward myself to a time in the not too distant future where I too can partake via a fallen fad quick sale on ebay.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

The voltage of a circuit does directly relate to the difficulty of achieving good broadband SNRs, but you can't just take the same circuit, strap it to two different voltages, and assume you're going to measure a better SNR with the higher voltage version.

In other words, Higher voltage of circuit makes EASIER to archive higher SNR, but not necessarily 100% correlation. You could achieve same or very similar SNR at lower signal levels, but it's harder to do from circuit design stand point, especially on lower fixed budget Correct?

 

[<eargiant]

Whenever I read these threads that speak in thousands of $ for meager solutions to borderline imaginary conditions, I fast forward myself to a time in the not too distant future where I too can partake via a fallen fad quick sale on ebay.

Don't hold your breath, not even Benchmarks early DACs sell for $50 on eBay like yesterdays AVR flavor of the day. These are highly respected Class A products we are talking about here.

So back to the article folks- dissect it and not the products Benchmark sells. Forget about Benchmark, any manufacturer could have posted this unsolicited write-up put together by a client that owns a Marantz 8801.

What about the other mediocre design areas that the units owner identified in the $4,000 AVR:

• Low Voltage Signal Path
• Volume Control ICS Limitations
• Output Buffers
• Power Rails
• Gain

Or are we just going to continue to deny that even a $4,000 AVR makes severe concessions in the Audio Path just because of the - so what, it sounds great to me - mentality?

 

[ski2xblack]

ear, you really should explore the difference between "severe concessions" and audibility for this exercise.

 

[TheWarrior]

Is it a good time to bring up amplifier damping factor?

 

[lovinthehd]

The 8001 is a pre-pro, not an avr....fwiw

 

[<eargiant]

ear, you really should explore the difference between "severe concessions" and audibility for this exercise.

No, because in this "exercise", "audibility" will be an endless debate. I already know where I stand in that respect.

My AVR listed below may or may not be designed and constructed like the Marantz but it has never ever sounded as good in pure 2 channel as other amplification that I have heard. Whether listening through speakers or various high quality headphones the results were the same. How am I ever going to convince anyone of that? I wouldn't even try...

 

[Irvrobinson]

In other words, Higher voltage of circuit makes EASIER to archive higher SNR, but not necessarily 100% correlation. You could achieve same or very similar SNR at lower signal levels, but it's harder to do from circuit design stand point, especially on lower fixed budget Correct?

In my opinion, it's all one big "it depends", and we're really going down a rathole that I want to avoid, partly because I'm not an expert in analog circuit design. In the context of the range of design choices and parts choices that one has for digital and analog consumer products, many-channel AVRs and pre-pros are likely to have choices that bias towards heat reduction, cost reduction, and reduced space consumption, even for relatively expensive versions. If they don't, the result may be a $15-20K 7.1 pre-pro that consumes 150 watts (it'll run quite hot, because line-level circuits are run Class A, so the higher the voltage they use the higher the power dissipation), and it may be the size of a 4U server.

And I think it is quite likely the hypothetical 4U pre-pro would not sound obviously better than the Marantz pre-pro from the blog, even if the SNR was actually lower.

 

[TheWarrior]

In my opinion, it's all one big "it depends", and we're really going down a rathole that I want to avoid, partly because I'm not an expert in analog circuit design. In the context of the range of design choices and parts choices that one has for digital and analog consumer products, many-channel AVRs and pre-pros are likely to have choices that bias towards heat reduction, cost reduction, and reduced space consumption, even for relatively expensive versions. If they don't, the result will be a $15-20K 7.1 pre-pro that consumes 150 watts (it'll run quite hot, because line-level circuits are run Class A, so the higher the voltage they use the higher the power dissipation), and it may be the size of a 4U server.

And I think it is quite likely the hypothetical 4U pre-pro would not sound obviously better than the Marantz pre-pro from the blog, even if the SNR was actually lower.

This is an internet forum. Everyone is an expert!

 

[Irvrobinson]

This is an internet forum. Everyone is an expert!

But the truth is that very few are experts.

To use an analogy, there are poetry readers, poetry critics, and poets. Lots of people with a little education can learn to read poetry and interpret it. Some people are poetry critics and analyze poems and criticize a poem's structure and meanings. And then there are poets. The people who design complex analog circuitry and produce great results (balancing performance, cost, and power) are the poets, and are really the experts. Everyone else isn't, and that includes me. I'm in the reader category.