The Audio Path In Consumer-Grade Products

[Bucknekked]

It's been shown by such researchers as Toole & Olive, that audible perceptions differ less among various listeners than many assume.

Audible preferences, however, are quite a different matter.

I like it. I thought about responding to that particular post, but couldn't think of anything positive to say.
You're simple post was spot on.

 

[Goliath]

Nope. Not if I take the Marantz and the Benchmark combo to the trial with a pair of Sennheiser 800S headphones. The evidence is incontrovertible.

Which is what I think some people need to do. Listen and compare more.

But you aren't just listening. You are ... peeking, knowing, expecting ... level mismatches, etc, etc, etc.

Your "listening" evaluations are so full of bias and prejudice and obvious systematic errors to be worthless for judging sound quality.

I know it's not what some want to hear but a $300 AVR is NOT going to audibly perform as well as properly designed equipment that is not cutting every corner and adding every bell and whistle that is out there.

Where is your "incontrovertible" evidence? Evidence that adding bells and whistles degrades sound quality can be found where? TIA.

When you come across an amp that is playing at a very high SPL and turn it off and hear NOTHING, I mean NOTHING (ear 1/2 inch from tweeter or with efficient closed headphones like M-50s), as if the unit were turned off -you know you have a special machine.

BTW, I have these also...

You can't voltage-match with an SPL meter. Thank you for confirming that you have never actually level-matched any audio gear in your audiophile life.

 

[<eargiant]

But you aren't just listening. You are ... peeking, knowing, expecting ... level mismatches, etc, etc, etc.

Your "listening" evaluations are so full of bias and prejudice and obvious systematic errors to be worthless for judging sound quality.



Where is your "incontrovertible" evidence? Evidence that adding bells and whistles degrades sound quality can be found where? TIA.



You can't voltage-match with an SPL meter. Thank you for confirming that you have never actually level-matched any audio gear in your audiophile life.

Forget about me, don't you think John Siau knows a thing or two about measurements and ABX tests?

As for me, it really doesn't matter much does it. Even if I was sitting with John Atkinson when he tested the Benchmark which took his AP Analyzer to it's limits (something JA had never seen before) or sitting with my tech when he had my 37 year old restored amp on his test bench looking at it's stunning measurements, it still wouldn't matter if I told you they both sounded fantastic to me because you'd still want me to prove it.

If measurements prove to us that some gear is more capable than others, that is always discounted by those that say that we cant hear it anyway. To those I say, enjoy your gear and I will enjoy mine.

 

[PENG]

I believe what he's saying, but I am skeptical that the differences are audible, as I've mentioned already. One could successfully argue that many audio products are really over-engineered. I just happen to like some of those products, and enjoy that they are over-engineered.

I do have issue with the way he said about the 1.2V rating thing. As we all know AH has tested quite a few D&M AVRs, and if I remember right, all of them were able to reach >2V without clipping. I believe D&M, actually Yamaha too, specify that 1, or 1.2V ouput under a specific condition, such as at a certain load impedance. I know the AV8801 has no trouble driving any of my amps (including the 4BSST @ 23dB gain) to full rated output and beyond. I realize this has nothing to do with his analysis, more like his incorrect assumption, that could be misleading for some readers.

As far as enjoying or liking over-engineered products, you are not alone.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I do have issue with the way he said about the 1.2V rating thing. As we all know AH has tested quite a few D&M AVRs, and if I remember right, all of them were able to reach >2V without clipping. I believe D&M, actually Yamaha too, specify that 1, or 1.2V ouput under a specific condition, such as at a certain load impedance. I know the AV8801 has no trouble driving any of my amps (including the 4BSST @ 23dB gain) to full rated output and beyond. I realize this has nothing to do with his analysis, more like his incorrect assumption, that could be misleading for some readers.

As far as enjoying or liking over-engineered products, you are not alone.

I think it depends on the amplifier. A lot of amplifiers today, especially through the single-ended inputs, have 32-34db of gain, and I'm guessing for those amps 2v is more than sufficient. For amps in the 23-28db of gain range it often takes 3v or more to reach rated output, and some of these amps (like the ATIs) that are very conservatively rated it takes more than 4v of input to actually get them to clip. So, personally, just to cover all possible peak power contingencies, I like to see 5v+ available on balanced outputs. My ATI AT602 has only 24db of gain, and the Outlaw 975 has trouble driving it with inefficient speakers. (In fact, that's one reason why I chose the Klipsch mains I use in that system.)

 

[Irvrobinson]

Forget about me, don't you think John Siau knows a thing or two about measurements and ABX tests?

I thought so too, but he wrote that inter-sample overs post, and he lost all credibility with me.

 

[lovinthehd]

When you come across an amp that is playing at a very high SPL and turn it off and hear NOTHING, I mean NOTHING (ear 1/2 inch from tweeter or with efficient closed headphones like M-50s), as if the unit were turned off -you know you have a special machine.

Ummmm.....if I turn my amp off after it has been playing it goddam well better be silent....it's off.

Probably not what you meant but if I have nothing playing while I have the volume cranked on my main and bedroom avrs (pretty sure the same holds for my workshop avr, but too lazy to go get a ladder to test)...I hear nothing, even with my ear up to the speaker. I have heard some use this background noise issue with a benchmark amp as an audible difference between that and a Crown XLS amp, but he had like 110 dB sensitive speakers but that was his complaint, the noise, not any particular issues with other audible differences between the very expensive and very inexpensive amp (he also had sought out particular pre-amp for same reason IIRC).

 

[Goliath]

Forget about me, don't you think John Siau knows a thing or two about measurements and ABX tests?

Nice red herring. We are discussing your "tests", not John Siau and the lack of any volume-matching in your so-called "comparison" discredits your results and conclusions whether you are cognisant of this or not.

Level-matching electronics is not done via an SPL meter so you are just discrediting yourself in the eyes of anyone who has a modicum of experience in subjective testing.

As for me, it really doesn't matter much does it. Even if I was sitting with John Atkinson when he tested the Benchmark which took his AP Analyzer to it's limits (something JA had never seen before) or sitting with my tech when he had my 37 year old restored amp on his test bench looking at it's stunning measurements, it still wouldn't matter if I told you they both sounded fantastic to me because you'd still want me to prove it.

Your subjective preferences are just that. Subjective. No one is suggesting you aren't hearing what you are hearing. You could hear ghosts (millions do) and I would believe you.

However the cause of those perceptions may not have anything to do with the amplifier "sound quality". It may have to do with ... the price, the looks, the reviews, reputation, etc, etc. Since you are human, delusion is another possibility.

Since your "comparisons" weren't volume-matched (you neither have the tools nor expertise to do this) there is nothing left to discuss as no impartial judgement of audio quality can be obtained under those conditions.

If measurements prove to us that some gear is more capable than others, that is always discounted by those that say that we cant hear it anyway. To those I say, enjoy your gear and I will enjoy mine.

What measurements? First you have to correlate measurements with audibility before you can go around claiming measurements "prove" anything.

Amps live in two worlds - the world of measurements where all sorts of things make small numerical differences that do not make any audible differences, and of course there is the world of audible sound quality where those numerical differences don't guarantee sound quality differences.

If you really want to "prove" something then you'll put your hearing claims to the test. Like Usain Bolt, he can demonstrate his abilities for all to see. Audiophiles on the other hand like to make bold pronouncements on internet forums, but never seem able to demonstrate these aural feats in reality.

 

[<eargiant]

Nice red herring. We are discussing your "tests", not John Siau and the lack of any volume-matching in your so-called "comparison" discredits your results and conclusions whether you are cognisant of this or not.

Level-matching electronics is not done via an SPL meter so you are just discrediting yourself in the eyes of anyone who has a modicum of experience in subjective testing.



Your subjective preferences are just that. Subjective. No one is suggesting you aren't hearing what you are hearing. You could hear ghosts (millions do) and I would believe you.

However the cause of those perceptions may not have anything to do with the amplifier "sound quality". It may have to do with ... the price, the looks, the reviews, reputation.

Since your "comparisons" weren't volume-matched (you neither have the tools nor expertise to do this) there is nothing left to discuss as no impartial judgement of audio quality can be obtained under those conditions.



What measurements? First you have to correlate measurements with audibility before you can go around claiming measurements "prove" anything.

Amps live in two worlds - the world of measurements where all sorts of things make small numerical differences that do not make any audible differences, and of course there is the world of audible sound quality where those numerical differences don't guarantee sound quality differences.

If you really want to "prove" something then you'll put your hearing claims to the test. Like Usain Bolt, he can demonstrate his abilities for all to see. Audiophiles on the other hand like to make bold pronouncements on internet forums, but never seem able to demonstrate these aural feats in reality.

Since you are the expert at setting up these tests, go ahead. You can calibrate the gear. Set up a test in the Tri-State area (or have one of your friends here do it) and I will be there on the condition that if I win and can detect the Benchmark against the AVR you buy me the Benchmark AHB2 & DAC3 combo.

Just let me bring my own source, music selections, speakers and headphones. better yet, bring your stuff to my room which I am accustomed to. I also want to be able to control the volume, don't have to know which one is playing- just be able to control the volume. If we throw my Denon AVR in the mix against the Benchmark, you'd better get ready to pay up.

It's funny that I don't see any business owning audio professionals (that don't give a squat about brands, labels, marketing, snake oil and such-only sound quality) using $300 AVRs in their studios. If they sound so good, why not use them as a cost savings application. I mean, $300... you can't beat that especially if you're supposedly getting top notch performance and equivalent audio quality.

Guys like you crack me up. You believe that in a perfect test someone is not going to be able to detect some POS $300 AVR against a Benchmark. Maybe a novice but not an experienced enthusiast.

25 out of 25 trials, not too bad. Seems like he was able to actually "demonstrate these aural feats in reality". Had you told him what you told me before the test, you'd be eating crow.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/power-amplifiers-the-importance-of-the-first-watt

I know Amps & DACs sound the same to many of you but I'm curious, do all phono stages also sound the same to you guys?

 

[PENG]

I think it depends on the amplifier. A lot of amplifiers today, especially through the single-ended inputs, have 32-34db of gain, and I'm guessing for those amps 2v is more than sufficient. For amps in the 23-28db of gain range it often takes 3v or more to reach rated output, and some of these amps (like the ATIs) that are very conservatively rated it takes more than 4v of input to actually get them to clip. So, personally, just to cover all possible peak power contingencies, I like to see 5v+ available on balanced outputs. My ATI AT602 has only 24db of gain, and the Outlaw 495 has trouble driving it with inefficient speakers. (In fact, that's one reason why I chose the Klipsch mains I use in that system.)

Yes I do want to see 4 to 5V (and rms please..) as well. Below was what Gene said about the AVR-X3300W that is rated 1.2V:

"One thing I really love about Denon receivers is they NEVER skimp on their preamp out circuits. Like past models, the AVR-X3300W had an ample amount of drive. I measured a whopping 4.5Vrms unclipped output, which is more than double the voltage needed to make virtually any amplifier reach full rated power."

and the Marantz SR6004, also rated 1.2V:

"With 0dBFS in, the SR6004 was able to output a whopping 7Vrms unclipped (<.1%THD +N). The 3rd order harmonic component was over 80dBv below the fundamental which was very good. Adjacent channel to channel crosstalk produced 81dB @ 1kHz, 65dB @ 10kHz which again is excellent."

That, combine with my own experience with Denon and Marantz AVR/AVP, I am quite sure Mr. Switzer somehow made an incorrect assumption on the preout specs of the AV8801.

If I have his email address I would email him and suggest he take some measurements himself. It isn't his fault. D&M, even Yamaha should be more specific about their preamp output specs instead of just stating rated output 1.2V. The higher Yamaha models tend to give a little more details such as:

1V/470 ohm, maximum: 2.0V or more, but come on, more??

Like the power consumption specs, manufacturers are either all over the place, or vague; and there isn't much consistency even within their own product time. I don't mean to be harsh but I wish Mr. Switzer was a little more curious when doing such "teardown" analysis.

 

[PENG]

do all phono stages also sound the same to you guys?

I bet most would say it depends, or more likely NO, they don't all sound the same, for the obvious reasons. it's like asking do all tube amps sound the same, or even do all SS amps sound the same, without any qualifiers in the question?

 

[<eargiant]

I bet most would say it depends, or more likely NO, they don't all sound the same, for the obvious reasons. it's like asking do all tube amps sound the same, or even do all SS amps sound the same, without any qualifiers in the question?

That's a relief! 'Cause I have read on here that all DACs supposedly sound the same, even the $30 ones.

 

[PENG]

That's a relief! 'Cause I have read on here that all DACs supposedly sound the same, even the $30 ones.

Really, can you provide a link to such claims about all DACs sound the same even the $30 ones?

 

[PENG]

Found the AV8801 review in which a debate (sort of) between Marantz and Dr. Rich was mentioned. Regardless of the supposedly lesser component such as the volume IC and the HDAM modules (OPA vs discrete components), the bench tests result still appear to be better than some much more expensive stereo preamps.

http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/receiver-processor/processors/marantz-av8801-11-2-surround-sound-processor-ssp/

 

[Irvrobinson]

Set up a test in the Tri-State area and I will be there. On the condition that if I win you buy me the Benchmark AHB2 & DAC3 combo.

Just let me bring my own source, music selections, speakers and headphones. If we throw the Denon AVR in the mix, you'd better get ready to pay up.

In case you hadn't noticed, Goliath is in South Africa.

 

[<eargiant]

Really, can you provide a link to such claims about all DACs sound the same even the $30 ones?

This was the comment:

"The most expensive DAC with the most snake oil will sound exactly the same as the cheapo in a $30 dvd player. Spend that money on things that really do improve sound quality like speakers or room treatment."

I'd rather not open a can of worms and start-up with the member that posted that comment. You were on that thread. If you wish, you can search your past comments or mine and you will see it.

Point is it once again goes back to measurements the beyond hearing capability argument. Those that are inexperienced are easily misled and sadly, robbed of the experiences that this wonderful hobby can provide.

Even NWAVGuy often tested his O2/DAC against Benchmark DACs. I suspect if NWAVGuy were creating an open source amplifier design to match his inexpensive but great sounding O2/DAC combo he'd be aspiring to create the performance and sound signature of The Benchmark AHB2 and not a D&M AVR or Pre/Pro.

This is such a wonderful hobby, it just bothers me that some allow another's ears, opinions or measurements to tell them not to even bother listening to the awesome new and old gear that is out there. It just makes people lazy and convinces them that they need not seek real world experiences because after all, this inexpensive whatever sounds just as good as anything else that's out there.

 

[PENG]

My ATI AT602 has only 24db of gain, and the Outlaw 495 has trouble driving it with inefficient speakers. (In fact, that's one reason why I chose the Klipsch mains I use in that system.)

The AT602 is rated 75W. If it has 24dB of gain, 1.6V can drive it pass full output. What is Outlaw 495?

 

[PENG]

I'd rather not open a can of worms and start-up with the member that posted that comment. You were on that thread. If you wish, you can search your past comments or mine and you will see it.

I just wonder if the guy included some sort of qualifiers instead just making a blanket statement. If I have to search for it, it's not worth it, so no thanks.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The AT602 is rated 75W. If it has 24dB of gain, 1.6V can drive it pass full output. What is Outlaw 495?

Sorry, it's a 975:

https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/975.html

 

[PENG]

Sorry, it's a 975:

https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/975.html

Thanks, so preout of that unit is 2V, 2.7V max., not bad but still wishy washy.. no ref to rms, peak, load impedance, THD etc. I am sure it can drive the AT602 to it's limit though. Bottom line, I need to see decent bench test measurements such as Gene's and AVtech's (stopped since 2014), or at least Stereophile's before I buy anything nowadays.