Advice on Yamaha RX-A3060 PreOut Options

[PENG]

Thanks PENG
I would probably run the YPAO, but from what I read and understood, you still need to set the amp settings so that the receiver recognizes you are using the external amps for the two height pairs of speakers. I'll reread the instructions again to be sure.

You maybe right but I highly doubt that, because page 131 does sound like it is for manual setup. I have not owned any recent Yamaha model but have owned Marantz, Denon and an older RX-V659. Typically if you run the auto setup it will ask you if you have the surround back and presence (Yamaha thing) channels hooked up, and do the rest for you. They really don't care, nor should they, about whether you are using external amps or not. They only need to know the what amp/or amp channel you want to assign for customization if you are using a combination of the main 5 or 7 channels plus zone 2 and 3.

There is no harm to try anyway right? In any case Yamaha seems to have improved their YPAO by a mile, probably as good as Audyssey XT32 now and even better in certain aspects so you may like the results.

 

[PENG]

It's what we do!

Couple of other considerations.
Since you mentioned space limitations, the Emo is 4" tall while the Outlaw is 6".
Emo is something like 26 lb and Outlaw is 50 lb!
Emo has fans to keep it cool and Outlaw has lots of heatsinks (see photo at Audioholics review).

For such unbeatable price, I wonder how many they are selling a day!!

 

[z71sierraslt]

It's what we do!

Couple of other considerations.
Since you mentioned space limitations, the Emo is 4" tall while the Outlaw is 6".
Emo is something like 26 lb and Outlaw is 50 lb!
Emo has fans to keep it cool and Outlaw has lots of heatsinks (see photo at Audioholics review).

Thanks Kurt for the heads up.
Either one should be fine. I have a Standout Designs Console and I try to minimize the components in it so there is plenty of space for air to circulate.

 

[z71sierraslt]

Keep in mind what you just said about doubling power to make 3dB spl difference... Have you played with an spl calculator to give you an idea of amp requirements for your spl levels? After calibration what volume levels (and which volume scale) are you using?

Thanks.
I don't have the tools to measure dB. For my use with my current Onkyo, the loudest I have it is at 45-50 on the volume (its pretty loud and the bass shakes the room). I'm not sure what dB that would be. I don't have a large room to fill 11x18ft with 9ft ceilings. About 1782 cubic ft, so the Yamaha should be perfect for it. The sound is comparable to a theater and the loudness, so not more than that, maybe a little less.

So would adding the outlaw amp be that beneficial? I understand the headroom and not over taxing the amp, but the Yamaha RX-A3060 should be able to hand that with ease. Especially if it is only pushing 7 of the 9 channels and 4 from the Emotiva.
Don't get me wrong, its about clean sound, but I didn't want to over do it. The 7.2.4 is already overdoing it in my size room...lol, but I am finding that the sound from each channel does have its benefits when listening.

Where can I get a dB tool, something inexpensive?

 

[z71sierraslt]

You maybe right but I highly doubt that, because page 131 does sound like it is for manual setup. I have not owned any recent Yamaha model but have owned Marantz, Denon and an older RX-V659. Typically if you run the auto setup it will ask you if you have the surround back and presence (Yamaha thing) channels hooked up, and do the rest for you. They really don't care, nor should they, about whether you are using external amps or not. They only need to know the what amp/or amp channel you want to assign for customization if you are using a combination of the main 5 or 7 channels plus zone 2 and 3.

There is no harm to try anyway right? In any case Yamaha seems to have improved their YPAO by a mile, probably as good as Audyssey XT32 now and even better in certain aspects so you may like the results.

Thanks I'll check it out and definitely do it with the YPAO and compare it with my manual settings.

 

[z71sierraslt]

KEW and lovinthehd, You guys are really tempting me with the Outlaw! LOL

 

[PENG]

Thanks.
I don't have the tools to measure dB. For my use with my current Onkyo, the loudest I have it is at 45-50 on the volume (its pretty loud and the bass shakes the room). I'm not sure what dB that would be. I don't have a large room to fill 11x18ft with 9ft ceilings. About 1782 cubic ft, so the Yamaha should be perfect for it. The sound is comparable to a theater and the loudness, so not more than that, maybe a little less.

So would adding the outlaw amp be that beneficial? I understand the headroom and not over taxing the amp, but the Yamaha RX-A3060 should be able to hand that with ease. Especially if it is only pushing 7 of the 9 channels and 4 from the Emotiva.
Don't get me wrong, its about clean sound, but I didn't want to over do it. The 7.2.4 is already overdoing it in my size room...lol, but I am finding that the sound from each channel does have its benefits when listening.

Where can I get a dB tool, something inexpensive?

For sound meter, you can get one of this:
Sound_Meter_33-2055

For a good calculator:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

You have very efficient speakers in a 11X18X9, if you plug in the figures in the above linked online calculator you will find that you have more headroom than you need already with the AVR alone. The additional amp will simply help off loading the expensive AVR a little, for longevity and add even more headroom in the sense that more power is always better.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks.
I don't have the tools to measure dB. For my use with my current Onkyo, the loudest I have it is at 45-50 on the volume (its pretty loud and the bass shakes the room). I'm not sure what dB that would be. I don't have a large room to fill 11x18ft with 9ft ceilings. About 1782 cubic ft, so the Yamaha should be perfect for it. The sound is comparable to a theater and the loudness, so not more than that, maybe a little less.

So would adding the outlaw amp be that beneficial? I understand the headroom and not over taxing the amp, but the Yamaha RX-A3060 should be able to hand that with ease. Especially if it is only pushing 7 of the 9 channels and 4 from the Emotiva.
Don't get me wrong, its about clean sound, but I didn't want to over do it. The 7.2.4 is already overdoing it in my size room...lol, but I am finding that the sound from each channel does have its benefits when listening.

Where can I get a dB tool, something inexpensive?

There are phone apps (android at least) that you can use in a pinch, although I prefer to use a measurement mic and REW software on a laptop. I use the Dayton Omnimic v.2. The Dayton UMM-6 or the miniDSP Umik-1 are good measurement mics.

Does your Onkyo not calibrate the volume dial to the THX standard? My Onkyo (a few years old, when they still had Audyssey) does that, and yours may be set to the absolute scale (many of us use the relative scale, tho). Try this article https://www.soundandvision.com/content/‘relative’-vs-‘absolute’-volume-what’s-difference

As to which amp, if I'm going to buy an amp I'm going to get as much for my $ as possible...

 

[KEW]

So would adding the outlaw amp be that beneficial? I understand the headroom and not over taxing the amp, but the Yamaha RX-A3060 should be able to hand that with ease. Especially if it is only pushing 7 of the 9 channels and 4 from the Emotiva.

As compared to the Emo, the Outlaw is worth $100 IMHO. However, the question of how much is enough is a different question. With your efficient speakers, I think it is likely that the 3060 by itself is enough, but I think you are wise to want to off-load some of the demand to keep some heat out of your AVR.
So it is a sliding scale...
The Outlaw is the sweet spot among value-oriented external amps. Aside from more power, I believe the Outlaw will last longer. You may change speakers down the road, but I would see the Outlaw always having a place. I have seen too many computer fan failures (a few true failures which would be a serious problem in an amp; but most often just noisy as the bearings start to go).
But I absolutely cannot say the Emo would be inadequate!

Perhaps a better way of pointing out the value of the Outlaw is to compare it to the $800 Emotiva 5175.
it is rated:

Power Output (all channels driven)
125 watts RMS per channel; 20 Hz - 20 kHz; THD < 0.1%; into 8 Ohms

For the Outlaw, Audioholics measured 135 watts RMS into 8ohms all 5 channels from 20 to 20kHz at 0.1% THD

The Emo wins on some specs, loses on others. It is nip 'n tuck. I would consider the Emo 5175 and the Outlaw to be fairly equivalent amps!

However, Emotiva clearly believes the 5175 to substantially out-class the A500!

 

[z71sierraslt]

There are phone apps (android at least) that you can use in a pinch, although I prefer to use a measurement mic and REW software on a laptop. I use the Dayton Omnimic v.2. The Dayton UMM-6 or the miniDSP Umik-1 are good measurement mics.

Does your Onkyo not calibrate the volume dial to the THX standard? My Onkyo (a few years old, when they still had Audyssey) does that, and yours may be set to the absolute scale (many of us use the relative scale, tho). Try this article https://www.soundandvision.com/content/‘relative’-vs-‘absolute’-volume-what’s-difference

As to which amp, if I'm going to buy an amp I'm going to get as much for my $ as possible...

Thanks, I currently have an Onkyo TX-NR-1008. I'll have to check on the relative/absolute scale setting if there is one. You can see how much of a newbie I am...lol. I have learned a lot in the last two days!

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks, I currently have an Onkyo TX-NR-1008. I'll have to check on the relative/absolute scale setting if there is one. You can see how much of a newbie I am...lol. I have learned a lot in the last two days!

Pretty sure the 1008 had both scales, you should run Audyssey to calibrate it if you don't have other gear...

 

[z71sierraslt]

Pretty sure the 1008 had both scales, you should run Audyssey to calibrate it if you don't have other gear...

I flipped the setting to relative and my 50 absolute is about -31db. That is the comfortable volume used. A bit louder for action movies. So I don't drive my speakers too hard.

 

[lovinthehd]

I flipped the setting to relative and my 50 absolute is about -31db. That is the comfortable volume used. A bit louder for action movies. So I don't drive my speakers too hard.

But did you calibrate it by running Audyssey or how did you determine levels/delays? Flipping an uncalibrated scale doesn't mean much but -30db if calibrated isnt very loud....

 

[PENG]

But did you calibrate it by running Audyssey or how did you determine levels/delays? Flipping an uncalibrated scale doesn't mean much but -30db if calibrated isnt very loud....

Good morning hd, I agree with you he should run Audyssey, but in his specific case I really don't think he needs to bother doing anything to find out the effects of calibration on the spl he is getting, unless he is curious like us. Again, he should still run Audyssey, but more to do with getting smoother bass frequency response.

His fronts and center are rated 98 dB/2.83V/1m. Let's assume they are inflated so say they are around 92 dB/1W/1m so that we can use the SPL_Calculator you and I have linked multiple times in the past.

Now, let's make some super conservative assumptions below:

1. No room gain at all, that is, all speakers away from any wall.
2. Only 1 speaker (in reality, in a 5.1 system at least 2 speakers will be drive to similar level).
3. Assume the specified 8 ohm nominal is actually 4 ohm, so the specified 98 dB will become 95 dB.
4. Assume Klipsch further inflated their sensitivity by another 3 dB.
5. Listening 12 ft from the front speakers. That's reasonable considering his room dimensions.

Based on above, the SPL_Calculator shows 80.7 dB with just 1 watt.

If we assume 2 speakers, placed near a wall (2-4 ft), and the 98 dB specified is realistic, then he would be getting 92.7 dB at 12 ft with just 1 watt and still have >20 dB of headroom.

80.7 dB spl is quite loud for most people, 92.7 dB is almost twice as loud as what we hear in THX cinemas.

 

[highfigh]

I am about to purchase a new receiver, a Yamaha RX-A3060 to run a 7.2.4 system. I have a 9.2 setup with an Onkyo TX-NR1008 for the last 7 years, but upgrading to get Atmos and DTX. The speakers are setup and ready to go. From the Yamaha manual, there are three options to set preout/amp settings for external amps, Front Speakers, Rear Presence Speakers and Front and Rear Presence speakers. I'm looking to purchase an Emotiva A-500 to run the 4 ceiling speakers and let the AVR drive the 7.2 channels. From my understanding, the Yamaha has enough power to do it all with the exception of the extra 2 channels to you need to get to 11 channels.

When using the amp settings, does it turn off power to those speakers in the AVR to leave more for the other speakers?

Which setting is the best?

What do you guys recommend when using an external amp and why?

Thank you in advance!


Front: Klipsch RF-82 II
Center: Klipsch RC-62
Surrounds: Klipsch RS-52
Surround Back: Klipsch RP-140SA

Front Height: Yamaha NS-IW280C
Back Height: NS-IW470 (6 Ohm Speakers)

Since the ceiling speakers aren't the main source of sound and won't be driven hard even at high SPL (because they act to fill the soundscape), what do you think the Emotiva will/can do that the Yamaha won't/can't?

No, the power amp is still powered- there's no change in output when those channels are used for preamp out, rather than connecting the speakers. If you're not at full power (or if you operate at less than half power, it's not going to make a difference.

 

[z71sierraslt]

But did you calibrate it by running Audyssey or how did you determine levels/delays? Flipping an uncalibrated scale doesn't mean much but -30db if calibrated isnt very loud....

I haven't run Audyssey in seven years and have made some minor adjustments since then. So I have it setup for the room. I flipped to absolute to get what the setting would read at 50/relative that's all. Thanks, I do appreciate your input. I may play around with Audyssey again.

 

[highfigh]

I just like the idea of an amp coasting and never pushing design limits/temperatures.

Not a fan of drag racing, eh?

 

[z71sierraslt]

Since the ceiling speakers aren't the main source of sound and won't be driven hard even at high SPL (because they act to fill the soundscape), what do you think the Emotiva will/can do that the Yamaha won't/can't?

No, the power amp is still powered- there's no change in output when those channels are used for preamp out, rather than connecting the speakers. If you're not at full power (or if you operate at less than half power, it's not going to make a difference.

The original plan was to use the Emotiva to drive the two sets of heights. I needed an external amp to get the two extra channels anyway. I was told to use the Yamaha amp to drive the mains (F/C) because it was good enough to do that for my room size. The Emotiva was to spread out the load and get the two extra channels. Since then I have had other great suggestions to get a more powerful amp within costs to drive the fronts and center. Thanks for the input though!

I'm good.

 

[Pogre]

I haven't run Audyssey in seven years and have made some minor adjustments since then. So I have it setup for the room. I flipped to absolute to get what the setting would read at 50/relative that's all. Thanks, I do appreciate your input. I may play around with Audyssey again.

I run Audyssey probably 3 or 4 times a week! That could very well be the OCD tho...

Kidding aside, 7 years is a long time. I'd run it again and get a fresh set of measurements. I've found taking all 8 measurements around my seat produces the best results for me.

 

[z71sierraslt]

I run Audyssey probably 3 or 4 times a week! That could very well be the OCD tho...

Kidding aside, 7 years is a long time. I'd run it again and get a fresh set of measurements. I've found taking all 8 measurements around my seat produces the best results for me.

You guys are hard core!...lol
If I have time, I'll play around with it. I was set with the current settings. I just need to find the mic...lol. Plus, I'll be upgrading to the Yamaha soon so I'll be studying the manual so I am up to speed on everything. You all have been great!