Advice on Yamaha RX-A3060 PreOut Options

[z71sierraslt]

I am about to purchase a new receiver, a Yamaha RX-A3060 to run a 7.2.4 system. I have a 9.2 setup with an Onkyo TX-NR1008 for the last 7 years, but upgrading to get Atmos and DTX. The speakers are setup and ready to go. From the Yamaha manual, there are three options to set preout/amp settings for external amps, Front Speakers, Rear Presence Speakers and Front and Rear Presence speakers. I'm looking to purchase an Emotiva A-500 to run the 4 ceiling speakers and let the AVR drive the 7.2 channels. From my understanding, the Yamaha has enough power to do it all with the exception of the extra 2 channels to you need to get to 11 channels.

When using the amp settings, does it turn off power to those speakers in the AVR to leave more for the other speakers?

Which setting is the best?

What do you guys recommend when using an external amp and why?

Thank you in advance!


Front: Klipsch RF-82 II
Center: Klipsch RC-62
Surrounds: Klipsch RS-52
Surround Back: Klipsch RP-140SA

Front Height: Yamaha NS-IW280C
Back Height: NS-IW470 (6 Ohm Speakers)

 

[PENG]

When using the amp settings, does it turn off power to those speakers in the AVR to leave more for the other speakers?

Which setting is the best?

Not sure what you meant by "amp settings". The amps for all 9 channels share the same power supply so if you don't use all 9 channels, the one you do use will get a bigger share, to a point.

What do you guys recommend when using an external amp and why?

I think the Emo you picked is fine, it is cost effective and they have been making amps for a long time.

 

[lovinthehd]

If you don't use all the amp channels in the avr, and instead use an external amp it would free up some juice for the amp channels the avr is powering.

 

[z71sierraslt]

Thanks for the clarification on the external amp freeing up power on the main AVR.

Not sure what you meant by "amp settings". The amps for all 9 channels share the same power supply so if you don't use all 9 channels, the one you do use will get a bigger share, to a point.



I think the Emo you picked is fine, it is cost effective and they have been making amps for a long time.

Thanks for the input. On Pg 131 Yamaha allows you to assign amp settings. That is where I needed clarification.

 

[z71sierraslt]

So if I drove the Fronts, Center and Surrounds with the main AVR and did the rest (Heights and Surround Back) with an external amp, it would free up power, but wasn't sure what setting to set it on from the manual on page 131.

It is clear if I only used the external amp for the front and rear presence speakers.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm not a Yamaha avr guy to help you with their methods, on my Denon I can assign external amps for any channels I want; if I'm going to buy an external amp I'd use it on the mains and let the avr do all the surrounds....

 

[z71sierraslt]

Thanks for the input, it is appreciated! All of you!
The manual provides options, but I don't want to just read into it and assume it works a certain way. I just needed this forum's expertise and years of experience to make a sound decision.
Based on what I can find, the pre-outs can be used with external amps in any configuration, but not clear on what the Yamaha AVR would do other than the three options stated. I guess it is just personal preference and your costs. I value your option and will take it into consideration but I have also heard to use the Yamaha Amp to drive the mains too because it was a powerful amp provided and to use an amp for the surrounds. I'll be using this mainly for Movies and not music.

 

[Pogre]

I agree with HD. If I were using an external amp I'd have it powering my front 3, not the surrounds. Surround (effect) speakers don't get near the play as the l/c/r.

 

[z71sierraslt]

I agree with HD. If I were using an external amp I'd have it powering my front 3, not the surrounds. Surround (effect) speakers don't get near the play as the l/c/r.

Thanks Pogre
So that is one of my dilemmas, I don't want to go buy an expensive amp. The Emotiva A-500 is in my budget, so you think I should drive the front three channels with this amp instead of the Yamaha Amp? Isn't the Yamaha Amp a better one to drive the front three? Just like you said (and I agree) the surrounds don't get a lot of play.
I'm asking because I really don't know. I spoke to a Crutchfield tech person and they said to use the Yamaha amp because it was better to use for the front three. The surrounds would be good to drive with the Emotiva.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just getting different recommendations.
Just not sure.
If I do drive the front three with an external amp, cost will be a factor in determining the amp purchased. My Klipsch RF-82 II and RC-62 are pretty efficient, that is why I was considering using the existing RX-A3060 amp to drive it. The two sets of height speakers are Yamaha ceiling speakers.

Front Height: Yamaha NS-IW280C
Back Height: NS-IW470 (6 Ohm Speakers)

 

[Pogre]

Thanks Pogre
So that is one of my dilemmas, I don't want to go buy an expensive amp. The Emotiva A-500 is in my budget, so you think I should drive the front three channels with this amp instead of the Yamaha Amp? Isn't the Yamaha Amp a better one to drive the front three? Just like you said (and I agree) the surrounds don't get a lot of play.
I'm asking because I really don't know. I spoke to a Crutchfield tech person and they said to use the Yamaha amp because it was better to use for the front three. The surrounds would be good to drive with the Emotiva.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just getting different recommendations.
Just not sure.
If I do drive the front three with an external amp, cost will be a factor in determining the amp purchased. My Klipsch RF-82 II and RC-62 are pretty efficient, that is why I was considering using the existing RX-A3060 amp to drive it. The two sets of height speakers are Yamaha ceiling speakers.

Front Height: Yamaha NS-IW280C
Back Height: NS-IW470 (6 Ohm Speakers)

I didn't look up the specs on your amp. If it's not a very powerful one, then yes. Offloading the surround duty to the smaller amp does make more sense to me. I'm not the amp expert though. Stick around for a few more replies and see what you get.

 

[z71sierraslt]

I didn't look up the specs on your amp. If it's not a very powerful one, then yes. Offloading the surround duty to the smaller amp does make more sense to me. I'm not the amp expert though. Stick around for a few more replies and see what you get.

Love to hear from others if they have the time. Thanks in advance
Thanks, Here are the specs to the Emotiva A-500 (5 Channels)

Power Output (two channels driven)
110 watts RMS per channel; 20 Hz - 20 kHz; THD < 0.1%; into 8 Ohms
190 watts RMS per channel; 1 kHz; THD < 1%; into 4 Ohms

Power Output (all channels driven)
80 watts RMS per channel; 20 Hz - 20 kHz; THD < 0.1%; into 8 Ohms

Power Bandwidth (at rated power; 8 Ohm load)
20 Hz to 20 kHz (+ / - 0.07 dB).

Broad Band Frequency Response
5 Hz to 80 kHz (+ / - 1.8 dB).

THD + noise
< 0.02% (A-weighted); at rated power; 1 kHz; 8 Ohms

Signal to Noise Ratio (8 Ohm load)
> 120 dB (A-weighted); ref rated power.
> 100 dB (A-weighted); ref 1 watt.

Minimum Recommended Load Impedance
4 Ohms; which equals one 4 Ohm load or two paralleled 8 Ohm loads.

Damping Factor (8 Ohm load)
> 500.

Speaker Output Connections
Audiophile grade, 5-way binding posts.

Power Supply
Linear power supply with heavy duty torodial transformer.

Input Sensitivity (for rated power; 8Ohm load)
1.2 V.

Gain
29 dB.

Input Connections
Unbalanced (RCA); one per channel.

Input Impedance
27 kOhms (unbalanced).

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the input, it is appreciated! All of you!
The manual provides options, but I don't want to just read into it and assume it works a certain way. I just needed this forum's expertise and years of experience to make a sound decision.
Based on what I can find, the pre-outs can be used with external amps in any configuration, but not clear on what the Yamaha AVR would do other than the three options stated. I guess it is just personal preference and your costs. I value your option and will take it into consideration but I have also heard to use the Yamaha Amp to drive the mains too because it was a powerful amp provided and to use an amp for the surrounds. I'll be using this mainly for Movies and not music.

I read those pages (21, 30-35, 52 and 131) briefly and now know what you are talking about. It seems to me page 131 is about manual setup. If you run YPAO auto setup, you should be able to just hook up the preouts for the heights and surround backs to the A500.

As others mentioned, people normally use an external amp for the FL, FR, and C and let the AVR power the less demanding surround and presence channel. In your case, the Yamaha RX-A3060 internal amps are more powerful than the Emotiva A500 so I do follow your logic, that is, let the A500 power the less demanding channels.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the input, it is appreciated! All of you!
The manual provides options, but I don't want to just read into it and assume it works a certain way. I just needed this forum's expertise and years of experience to make a sound decision.
Based on what I can find, the pre-outs can be used with external amps in any configuration, but not clear on what the Yamaha AVR would do other than the three options stated. I guess it is just personal preference and your costs. I value your option and will take it into consideration but I have also heard to use the Yamaha Amp to drive the mains too because it was a powerful amp provided and to use an amp for the surrounds. I'll be using this mainly for Movies and not music.

All I meant was that some want the most power/headroom for the mains for music purposes particularly, and they do get the most work generally compared to surrounds. Didn't mean it would necessarily apply to you but I hadn't looked up the specs on the amp, or its price, its a pretty decent price for a 5 channel amp, but it is modestly powered, should work fine for your surrounds. All about having a good tool for the job, so if the amp, whether the avr's or an external, has the power for your spl goals, you're good.

OTOH two of these would do the job and give you some extra power as well and save $100, the aesthetic wouldn't be for everyone, tho.

 

[KEW]

I might suggest you spend an extra $100 for the Outlaw Model 5000. It is significantly more capable than the Emo and also more capable than your 3060's amp section!
https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/5000.html

Outlaw is rated at 120 into 8ohms RMS watts with all 5 channels driven simultaneously from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than 0.02% THD (50% more powerful at only 1/5th of the Emo's distortion level).
Audioholics measured 135 watts RMS into 8ohms all 5 channels from 20 to 20kHz at 0.1% THD (68% more powerful at the same distortion level as the Emo).
http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/outlaw-5000/measurements

Your 3060 measured 102.3 watts RMS into 8ohms all 5 channels from 20 to 20kHz at 0.1% THD.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-aventage-rx-a3060-av-receiver-review-test-bench (essentially half way between the Emo and the Outlaw).

The Emotiva is only rated at 80 watts RMS into 8ohms all 5 channels from 20 Hz - 20 kHz at 0.1% THD.

Outlaw did a strange thing by only specifying power for all 5 channels driven at once. This almost seems like marketing suicide because so many are only going to look at the 120Watt number and compare it with other amps where the power rating is only for two channels. Per the Audioholics bench tests, the 2 channel rating into 4 ohms at 0.1% THD (comparable to the A3060 at 159W) for the Outlaw is 230W! The Emo is rated at 170W into 4 Ohms, but that is at 1kHz with 1.0% THD. Emo used not to do this, but now they are playing games with limited bandwidth and higher distortion levels to be able to inflate power ratings.

The Outlaw is a more rigorous amp than the Emo and, I think, worth the extra $100.
That said, you are right that your speakers are an easy load and I believe the Emo would do the job.
I just like the idea of an amp coasting and never pushing design limits/temperatures.

 

[z71sierraslt]

I read those pages (21, 30-35, 52 and 131) briefly and now know what you are talking about. It seems to me page 131 is about manual setup. If you run YPAO auto setup, you should be able to just hook up the preouts for the heights and surround backs to the A500.

As others mentioned, people normally use an external amp for the FL, FR, and C and let the AVR power the less demanding surround and presence channel. In your case, the Yamaha RX-A3060 internal amps are more powerful than the Emotiva A500 so I do follow your logic, that is, let the A500 power the less demanding channels.

Thanks PENG
I would probably run the YPAO, but from what I read and understood, you still need to set the amp settings so that the receiver recognizes you are using the external amps for the two height pairs of speakers. I'll reread the instructions again to be sure.

 

[z71sierraslt]

All I meant was that some want the most power/headroom for the mains for music purposes particularly, and they do get the most work generally compared to surrounds. Didn't mean it would necessarily apply to you but I hadn't looked up the specs on the amp, or its price, its a pretty decent price for a 5 channel amp, but it is modestly powered, should work fine for your surrounds. All about having a good tool for the job, so if the amp, whether the avr's or an external, has the power for your spl goals, you're good.

OTOH two of these would do the job and give you some extra power as well and save $100, the aesthetic wouldn't be for everyone, tho.

Thank you for the input.
I understand and agree with you about the power and headroom needed. I will consider getting a more powerful amp. From what I read, the Yamaha does provide ample power and seems like it would have more than my current AVR. My movie listening habits, I believe can be handled by the Yamaha itself. My Onkyo now works fine with 9.2 and loud enough for me to listen to without any distortion. My goal was to utilize the main Yamaha and get a second amp mainly to get the extra two channels needed for a 7.2.4 setup. But the Emotiva amps have several versions where I thought the 5 channel amp would spread out the load to accommodate the two heights instead of just one allowing the Yamaha to push the main 7 channels.

As far as the two amps you recommended, thanks. I'm going to stick with just one amp even if it does cost a little bit more. This is more of not wanting to have an addition amp to take up space. I only have room for one additional amp to do what I need plus the Yamaha.

From my research, it would take double the amount of amp power to just gain 3 dB of volume.

 

[z71sierraslt]

I might suggest you spend an extra $100 for the Outlaw Model 5000. It is significantly more capable than the Emo and also more capable than your 3060's amp section!
https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/5000.html

Outlaw is rated at 120 into 8ohms RMS watts with all 5 channels driven simultaneously from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than 0.02% THD (50% more powerful at only 1/5th of the Emo's distortion level).
Audioholics measured 135 watts RMS into 8ohms all 5 channels from 20 to 20kHz at 0.1% THD (68% more powerful at the same distortion level as the Emo).
http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/outlaw-5000/measurements

Your 3060 measured 102.3 watts RMS into 8ohms all 5 channels from 20 to 20kHz at 0.1% THD.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-aventage-rx-a3060-av-receiver-review-test-bench (essentially half way between the Emo and the Outlaw).

The Emotiva is only rated at 80 watts RMS into 8ohms all 5 channels from 20 Hz - 20 kHz at 0.1% THD.

Outlaw did a strange thing by only specifying power for all 5 channels driven at once. This almost seems like marketing suicide because so many are only going to look at the 120Watt number and compare it with other amps where the power rating is only for two channels. Per the Audioholics bench tests, the 2 channel rating into 4 ohms at 0.1% THD (comparable to the A3060 at 159W) for the Outlaw is 230W! The Emo is rated at 170W into 4 Ohms, but that is at 1kHz with 1.0% THD. Emo used not to do this, but now they are playing games with limited bandwidth and higher distortion levels to be able to inflate power ratings.

The Outlaw is a more rigorous amp than the Emo and, I think, worth the extra $100.
That said, you are right that your speakers are an easy load and I believe the Emo would do the job.
I just like the idea of an amp coasting and never pushing design limits/temperatures.

You guys are going to make me spend more money! LOL Kurt are you in Outlaw sales? (just kidding)
Thanks for the information, you, PENG, Pogre and lovinthehd provided great stuff.
It's very much appreciated! Lots to think about now than my original plan.

Hmmmm one amp requirement, check
Option #1
With the Outlaw, run Fronts, Center and Surrounds. Run the Top Heights, Back Height and Back Surrounds with the Yamaha.
Is this much power needed? I understand what you mean by wanting your amp to coast.

Option #2
With the Emotiva, run Top Height and Back Height
Run Fronts, Center, Surrounds and Back Surrounds with Yamaha.

I'll think it through.
Thanks Guys!

 

[KEW]

You guys are going to make me spend more money!

It's what we do!

Couple of other considerations.
Since you mentioned space limitations, the Emo is 4" tall while the Outlaw is 6".
Emo is something like 26 lb and Outlaw is 50 lb!
Emo has fans to keep it cool and Outlaw has lots of heatsinks (see photo at Audioholics review).

 

[lovinthehd]

You guys are going to make me spend more money! LOL Kurt are you in Outlaw sales? (just kidding)
Thanks for the information, you, PENG, Pogre and lovinthehd provided great stuff.
It's very much appreciated! Lots to think about now than my original plan.

Hmmmm one amp requirement, check
Option #1
With the Outlaw, run Fronts, Center and Surrounds. Run the Top Heights, Back Height and Back Surrounds with the Yamaha.
Is this much power needed? I understand what you mean by wanting your amp to coast.

Option #2
With the Emotiva, run Top Height and Back Height
Run Fronts, Center, Surrounds and Back Surrounds with Yamaha.

I'll think it through.
Thanks Guys!

Keep in mind what you just said about doubling power to make 3dB spl difference... Have you played with an spl calculator to give you an idea of amp requirements for your spl levels? After calibration what volume levels (and which volume scale) are you using?

 

[PENG]

Keep in mind what you just said about doubling power to make 3dB spl difference... Have you played with an spl calculator to give you an idea of amp requirements for your spl levels? After calibration what volume levels (and which volume scale) are you using?

Agree, however, if he was doing fine with his Onkyo, the Yamaha should be fine too as the two are very comparable in terms of power output. The Onkyo probably has a very slight edge in ACD while the Yamaha would likely do better in two channel driven outputs. Checking it out with a spl calculator never is still a good idea though just to figure out the headroom he is going to have.