Advice on Yamaha RX-A3060 PreOut Options

Z

z71sierraslt

Audioholic Intern
You maybe right but I highly doubt that, because page 131 does sound like it is for manual setup. I have not owned any recent Yamaha model but have owned Marantz, Denon and an older RX-V659. Typically if you run the auto setup it will ask you if you have the surround back and presence (Yamaha thing) channels hooked up, and do the rest for you. They really don't care, nor should they, about whether you are using external amps or not. They only need to know the what amp/or amp channel you want to assign for customization if you are using a combination of the main 5 or 7 channels plus zone 2 and 3.

There is no harm to try anyway right? In any case Yamaha seems to have improved their YPAO by a mile, probably as good as Audyssey XT32 now and even better in certain aspects so you may like the results.
PENG,
Just to clarify, I can run YPAO without the external amp first? Meaning, I can hook up all 11 channels to the AVR and run the YPAO even though the last two channels are not powered?

OR do I need to run YPAO with the external amp and all of the 11 speakers connected?
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I haven't run Audyssey in seven years and have made some minor adjustments since then. So I have it setup for the room. I flipped to absolute to get what the setting would read at 50/relative that's all. Thanks, I do appreciate your input. I may play around with Audyssey again.
No problem, curious more than anything, and to see just what your volume levels in regular use are; had you not run Audyssey the resultant volume level may not compare to others'.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
PENG,
Just to clarify, I can run YPAO without the external amp first? Meaning, I can hook up all 11 channels to the AVR and run the YPAO even though the last two channels are not powered?

OR do I need to run YPAO with the external amp and all of the 11 speakers connected?
No, you should connect up the external amp before running YPAO, otherwise the results won't be accurate. It is okay if there are channels you don't use, just leave those alone but for the ones you do use, you must connect the speakers.

For example, if you use the external amp for the surround back and height channels, then you have to connect the AVR's preouts for those channels to the external amps input, and connect those speakers to the external amps output binding posts. Connect the remaining speakers directly to the AVR's output binding posts. After hooking up all the preouts and speakers, run YPAO.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
The original plan was to use the Emotiva to drive the two sets of heights. I needed an external amp to get the two extra channels anyway. I was told to use the Yamaha amp to drive the mains (F/C) because it was good enough to do that for my room size. The Emotiva was to spread out the load and get the two extra channels. Since then I have had other great suggestions to get a more powerful amp within costs to drive the fronts and center. Thanks for the input though!

I'm good.
BTW- there's a way to access the AVR's setup using its IP address, too- much easier to do than with the remote and on-screen display.
 
Z

z71sierraslt

Audioholic Intern
No, you should connect up the external amp before running YPAO, otherwise the results won't be accurate. It is okay if there are channels you don't use, just leave those alone but for the ones you do use, you must connect the speakers.

For example, if you use the external amp for the surround back and height channels, then you have to connect the AVR's preouts for those channels to the external amps input, and connect those speakers to the external amps output binding posts. Connect the remaining speakers directly to the AVR's output binding posts. After hooking up all the preouts and speakers, run YPAO.
Thank You!
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
Thanks Pogre
So that is one of my dilemmas, I don't want to go buy an expensive amp. The Emotiva A-500 is in my budget, so you think I should drive the front three channels with this amp instead of the Yamaha Amp? Isn't the Yamaha Amp a better one to drive the front three? Just like you said (and I agree) the surrounds don't get a lot of play.
I'm asking because I really don't know. I spoke to a Crutchfield tech person and they said to use the Yamaha amp because it was better to use for the front three. The surrounds would be good to drive with the Emotiva.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just getting different recommendations.
Just not sure.
If I do drive the front three with an external amp, cost will be a factor in determining the amp purchased. My Klipsch RF-82 II and RC-62 are pretty efficient, that is why I was considering using the existing RX-A3060 amp to drive it. The two sets of height speakers are Yamaha ceiling speakers.

Front Height: Yamaha NS-IW280C
Back Height: NS-IW470 (6 Ohm Speakers)
The whole purpose of external power is to power channels that AVR doesn't have amps to power, and or to take some of the work load off of the AVR.

I have the EMO A-500...it's a good amp for a budget price...runs cool, for a moderate size room it's all the amp most people would want or need if 5 channel is all you were running.

I drive my surrounds with it and have monoblocks driving the front 3 channels....in your case, I'd give the dedicated power amp (A500) the heavier load and let the Yamaha handle the surrounds.

In movies or multi-channel music, the LCR speakers are getting the lionshare of the signal.

Maybe I'm not understanding something on the amp assignment...how you wire it should determine the amp assignment for each channel.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
One more question about this same equipment.
My home theater is a regular room converted to and HT, it is on a 20A circuit for the room.
My question is how much can I put on that circuit without overloading it?

Is it 2400 Watts = 20A x 120V?

My equipment would be

Receiver Yamaha RX-A3060 = 230 Watts?
Outlaw 5000 Amp = 1500 Watts
Projector = 353 Watts
Blu Ray Player = 24 Watts
Sub (RMS = 250 Watts) Max = 1000 Watts 4 Ohms.

Can I have all of this on this one circuit?
I also have some home theater seats that draw power too.
What all do I have to consider?
I wouldn't worry about it, I only have 15A and have more gear than you on one outlet....
 
Z

z71sierraslt

Audioholic Intern
I wouldn't worry about it, I only have 15A and have more gear than you on one outlet....
Thanks, I was worried about it causing issues throughout the house.
After adding all of it up, it was over the max.
 
Z

z71sierraslt

Audioholic Intern
I wouldn't worry about it, I only have 15A and have more gear than you on one outlet....
So at the breaker box, it says 20A, I am assuming 20 Amps for that one room.
Is that correct? There are several outlets in that room so that one room has only 20 Amps?




One more question about this same equipment.
My home theater is a regular room converted to and HT, it is on a 20A circuit for the room.
My question is how much can I put on that circuit without overloading it?

Is it 2400 Watts = 20A x 120V?

My equipment would be

Receiver Yamaha RX-A3060 = 230 Watts?
Outlaw 5000 Amp = 1500 Watts
Projector = 353 Watts
Blu Ray Player = 24 Watts
Sub (RMS = 250 Watts) Max = 1000 Watts 4 Ohms.

Can I have all of this on this one circuit?
I also have some home theater seats that draw power too.
What all do I have to consider?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
So at the breaker box, it says 20A, I am assuming 20 Amps for that one room.
Is that correct? There are several outlets in that room so that one room has only 20 Amps?




One more question about this same equipment.
My home theater is a regular room converted to and HT, it is on a 20A circuit for the room.
My question is how much can I put on that circuit without overloading it?

Is it 2400 Watts = 20A x 120V?

My equipment would be

Receiver Yamaha RX-A3060 = 230 Watts?
Outlaw 5000 Amp = 1500 Watts
Projector = 353 Watts
Blu Ray Player = 24 Watts
Sub (RMS = 250 Watts) Max = 1000 Watts 4 Ohms.

Can I have all of this on this one circuit?
I also have some home theater seats that draw power too.
What all do I have to consider?
It isn't a hard limit for the room, or even one receptacle, of 20A, for short durations it can exceed that draw without tripping the breaker....it's more about continuous draw from what I know (which is limited :) ).
 
Z

z71sierraslt

Audioholic Intern
No, you should connect up the external amp before running YPAO, otherwise the results won't be accurate. It is okay if there are channels you don't use, just leave those alone but for the ones you do use, you must connect the speakers.

For example, if you use the external amp for the surround back and height channels, then you have to connect the AVR's preouts for those channels to the external amps input, and connect those speakers to the external amps output binding posts. Connect the remaining speakers directly to the AVR's output binding posts. After hooking up all the preouts and speakers, run YPAO.

PENG,
Are there issues with the Yamaha PreOut voltage? I see conversations about them throughout forum, but wanted your opinion.

I had to put a hold on the purchase because of some AC issues. I spoke to an Outlaw Customer Service rep and he was going over how some of their Amps worked better with different AVRs. Of course he was pushing Marantz because they are a dealer. He mentioned that the Yamaha was better paired with the Outlaw 5000 because of the preout voltage where as the new 7140 was better paired with an Denon/Marantz. The reasoning for that was that the PreOut voltage was lower in the Yamaha and that I wouldn't get the full amp power for the 7140 vs the 5000.
 
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2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
PENG,
Are there issues with the Yamaha PreOut voltage? I see conversations about them throughout forum, but wanted your opinion.

I had to put a hold on the purchase because of some AC issues. I spoke to an Outlaw Customer Service rep and he was going over how some of their Amps worked better with different AVRs. Of course he was pushing Marantz because they are a dealer. He mentioned that the Yamaha was better paired with the Outlaw 5000 because of the preout voltage where as the new 7140 was better paired with an Denon/Marantz.
In most cases, a circuits is applies to 1 room, but that's not always the case. Just depends on the load and wiring proximity...It will typically indicate what each breaker is powering on the panel box, but that. FWIW, I think you're fine with 20a for what you will be running on it including the powered chairs.

Outlaw 5000...I own 3 of the 200wpc 2200 monoblocks...they power the front 3 channels and I have a smaller Emotiva 5 channel amp powering the surrounds. Part of me wishes I bought the 5000 or more so the 7140 but I'm okay with what I have. The 5000 will make easy work of your front 3 and use the AVR amps for the surrounds.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
PENG,
Are there issues with the Yamaha PreOut voltage? I see conversations about them throughout forum, but wanted your opinion.

I had to put a hold on the purchase because of some AC issues. I spoke to an Outlaw Customer Service rep and he was going over how some of their Amps worked better with different AVRs. Of course he was pushing Marantz because they are a dealer. He mentioned that the Yamaha was better paired with the Outlaw 5000 because of the preout voltage where as the new 7140 was better paired with an Denon/Marantz. The reasoning for that was that the PreOut voltage was lower in the Yamaha and that I wouldn't get the full amp power for the 7140 vs the 5000.
I am sure the preout voltage is not an issue for most amps including Outlaws. It is only the entry level Yamaha AVRs that may have such concern.
 
Z

z71sierraslt

Audioholic Intern
I am sure the preout voltage is not an issue for most amps including Outlaws. It is only the entry level Yamaha AVRs that may have such concern.

So the preout voltage is pretty much not an issue then.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord

Is it 2400 Watts = 20A x 120V?
20AX120V = 2400 VA, not 2400 W unless the load is almost purely resisitive like a electrical heater. For inductive load you have to apply a power factor, that could be anywhere between 0.7 to 0.9, for audio equipment, probably around 0.8 so 2400 VA will be more like 2400X0.8W = 1920W

My equipment would be

Receiver Yamaha RX-A3060 = 230 Watts?
Outlaw 5000 Amp = 1500 Watts
Projector = 353 Watts
Blu Ray Player = 24 Watts
Sub (RMS = 250 Watts) Max = 1000 Watts 4 Ohms.
If you are using the A3060 as a prepro only, it will probably draw between 80 to 120W, but this is just an educated guess.

The Outlaw 5000 may draw 1500W at rated output, but for normal use in you HT room, assuming your room is not very big and you don't listen at above reference level, it will most likely be hoovering around 100 to 80W to 120W average with peaks up to 1,000W, a little more, or less, most likely less.

Can I have all of this on this one circuit?
Yes.

I also have some home theater seats that draw power too.
What all do I have to consider?
If you have a large screen (say 60" and over) TV, it could draw some significant power, check the manual but I would guess around 200W for LCD type and 300W or more for Plasma. A 20A outlet is still adequate even a Plasma large screen is plugged in.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So the preout voltage is pretty much not an issue then.
I have not seen a single bench test on the RX-A3000 series that shows poor preout voltage.

Here's one example review by Gene:

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/rx-a1010/rx-a1010-measurements

In that review, Gene commented on the RX-A1010's preout.

"Yamaha RX-A1010 Preamplifier Measurements
I did some quick spot-checking on the RX-A1010 pre-amplifier gain structure to ensure it could be properly drive a wide assortment of power amplifier. My personal criteria for amplifier gain structure is that it should be able to hit full power when driven with 2Vrms. The RX-A1010 was able to deliver 2.8Vrms unclipped out of the analog multi channel outputs. Once I exceeded this output level, the auto protection circuits shut the receiver down. This is more than enough clean output voltage to drive any audio amplifier to clipping."

Have you bought the RX-A3060 already? Did you also consider Denon and Marantz?
 
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Z

z71sierraslt

Audioholic Intern
I have not seen a single bench test on the RX-A3000 series that shows poor preout voltage.

Here's one example review by Gene:

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/rx-a1010/rx-a1010-measurements

In that review, Gene commented on the RX-A1010's preout.

"Yamaha RX-A1010 Preamplifier Measurements
I did some quick spot-checking on the RX-A1010 pre-amplifier gain structure to ensure it could be properly drive a wide assortment of power amplifier. My personal criteria for amplifier gain structure is that it should be able to hit full power when driven with 2Vrms. The RX-A1010 was able to deliver 2.8Vrms unclipped out of the analog multi channel outputs. Once I exceeded this output level, the auto protection circuits shut the receiver down. This is more than enough clean output voltage to drive any audio amplifier to clipping."

Have you bought the RX-A3060 already? Did you also consider Denon and Marantz?
I had to put my purchase on hold for a few months. I had to purchase a new evaporator and condenser for the house last month. The Yamaha is at the top of the list, but the Denon going on sale made me pause a bit. So I have some time to reconsider my options. The Denons I was looking at were the 4300H and 6300H. The Outlaw amps are still in play 5000 and 7140. You guys made me power hungry...lol.

What are your thoughts on the Denons or Marantz compared to the Yamaha?
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I had to put my purchase on hold for a few months. I had to purchase a new evaporator and condenser for the house last month. The Yamaha is at the top of the list, but the Denon going on sale made me pause a bit. So I have some time to reconsider my options. The Denons I was looking at were the 4300H and 6300H. The Outlaw amps are still in play 5000 and 7140. You guys made me power hungry...lol.

What are your thoughts on the Denons or Marantz compared to the Yamaha?
I think for $799 or less currently, the X4300H seems unbeatable. The Yamaha will likely have better measurements (have not seen any yet) basic on past reviews on the older models but that most certainly won't make any audible difference.

This thread is getting long so it maybe worth repeating that with your Klipsch speakers, you should try the AVR on its own first and only add an external amp if you have to crank your MV above say -10 all the time, unless you across some irresistible deals on the Outlaw 5000 (like black Friday/Boxing day etc.). There is no rush in risking damaging your ears.:D:D
 
Z

z71sierraslt

Audioholic Intern
The whole purpose of external power is to power channels that AVR doesn't have amps to power, and or to take some of the work load off of the AVR.

I have the EMO A-500...it's a good amp for a budget price...runs cool, for a moderate size room it's all the amp most people would want or need if 5 channel is all you were running.

I drive my surrounds with it and have monoblocks driving the front 3 channels....in your case, I'd give the dedicated power amp (A500) the heavier load and let the Yamaha handle the surrounds.

In movies or multi-channel music, the LCR speakers are getting the lionshare of the signal.

Maybe I'm not understanding something on the amp assignment...how you wire it should determine the amp assignment for each channel.
Part of my confusion early on was that the Yamaha RX-A3060 specified three choices to assign the external amps. Fronts/2 sets of heights/or back surrounds. When assigned to one of these three, the manual said it would turn off the power to the one you assigned. I wanted to know, would it turn off the center and surrounds too if I used an amp for the fronts, center and surrounds (preouts) using for example the fronts setting. I am assuming that the center and surrounds are also disabled regardless of the setting when using the preouts.
 
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Z

z71sierraslt

Audioholic Intern
I think for $799 or less currently, the X4300H seems unbeatable. The Yamaha will likely have better measurements (have not seen any yet) basic on past reviews on the older models but that most certainly won't make any audible difference.

This thread is getting long so it maybe worth repeating that with your Klipsch speakers, you should try the AVR on its own first and only add an external amp if you have to crank your MV above say -10 all the time, unless you across some irresistible deals on the Outlaw 5000 (like black Friday/Boxing day etc.). There is no rush in risking damaging your ears.:D:D
Thanks PENG
I still need an external amp to power the extra pair of speakers. I'm careful with noise levels. I'm learning that the extra power for me at least is to have good clean sound and not so much volume.
 

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