DIY JBL Speaker Cabinets and Components Question

Keith Roberts

Keith Roberts

Enthusiast
I am pretty new to this but am planning on building a set of vintage JBL C35 bass reflex speaker cabinets but will be using newer JBL Components. Specifically, JBL 2226H 15" woofers, JBL 2426H/J HF compression drivers with JBL 2370A horns and JBL 3120A crossovers, crossing over at 1250 Hz . I will be pushing these speakers with a recently restored Sansui 9090DB at 8 Ohms. The 3120A JBL crossovers call for a LF of 8 ohms and a HF of 16 ohms. My question is this...will I run into a problem using an 8 Ohm HF compression driver which matches my receiver output, that being the 2426H, or would it be better to use the 16 Ohm compression driver, the 2426J, which the crossover calls for? Or does it even matter? Any help would be appreciated as I can't really find anything addressing this particular issue via Google.
Thanks much,
-Keith
Sansui 9090DB Image.JPG
JBL C35.jpg
JBL 3120A Crossover.JPG
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I am pretty new to this but am planning on building a set of vintage JBL C35 bass reflex speaker cabinets but will be using newer JBL Components. Specifically, JBL 2226H 15" woofers, JBL 2426H/J HF compression drivers with JBL 2370A horns and JBL 3120A crossovers, crossing over at 1250 Hz . I will be pushing these speakers with a recently restored Sansui 9090DB at 8 Ohms. The 3120A JBL crossovers call for a LF of 8 ohms and a HF of 16 ohms. My question is this...will I run into a problem using an 8 Ohm HF compression driver which matches my receiver output, that being the 2426H, or would it be better to use the 16 Ohm compression driver, the 2426J, which the crossover calls for? Or does it even matter? Any help would be appreciated as I can't really find anything addressing this particular issue via Google.
Thanks much,
-Keith View attachment 20555 View attachment 20556 View attachment 20557
You are just about to waste a lot of time and money. What you propose will sound awful, not might will. Absolutely dead certain.

You can not design a speaker via Google!

First off you can not put a driver in a cabinet designed for a different driver and get it to work. A cabinet has to be designed specifically for a given driver according to its Thiel/Small parameters.

Next you can not use off the shelf crossovers. What JBL have to say about those crossovers is total garbage.

Crossovers have to be designed specifically and custom for the drivers involved. The crossover must provide Baffle step compensation, which will depend on the width of the cabinet. The crossover slopes (orders) must combine with the acoustic responses of the drivers to produce a flat response in the crossover region. The crossover must also deal with response aberrations of the drivers and make allowances for the different sensitivities of the drivers.

How to do this is not something we can teach you on this forum.

Lastly changing the impedance of the drivers will drastically alter the crossover frequencies.

Just stop now, before you pour money down the drain.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Another thought for you, try the loudspeaker and diy subforums at avsforum.com, believe there's a couple JBL oriented guys that hang out there.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
I will be pushing these speakers with a recently restored Sansui 9090DB at 8 Ohms. View attachment 20555 View attachment 20556 View attachment 20557
Keith

Welcome to the AH forum ! Hope you have a good experience here.

TLS Guy doesn't think much of your suggested speaker project. Although the advice might sound a bit caustic for a new guy on the forum, TLS Guy is a walking encyclopedia when it comes to vintage equipment. If he thinks you are barking up the wrong tree: he's got some pretty solid reasons. He's really solid when it comes to your topic.

I can't help but compliment you on your Sansui reciever however. I love the look of that thing and if that's a photo of your actual unit, that is a gorgeous piece of hardware. I ran Sansui products back in the day and I enjoyed the heck out of them. I'd be proud to own the receiver you have in the picture even the project you described might not be well founded.

Again, welcome to the forum and you'll find a lot of admirers here for that Sansui receiver.
 
Keith Roberts

Keith Roberts

Enthusiast
You are just about to waste a lot of time and money. What you propose will sound awful, not might will. Absolutely dead certain.

You can not design a speaker via Google!

First off you can not put a driver in a cabinet designed for a different driver and get it to work. A cabinet has to be designed specifically for a given driver according to its Thiel/Small parameters.

Next you can not use off the shelf crossovers. What JBL have to say about those crossovers is total garbage.

Crossovers have to be designed specifically and custom for the drivers involved. The crossover must provide Baffle step compensation, which will depend on the width of the cabinet. The crossover slopes (orders) must combine with the acoustic responses of the drivers to produce a flat response in the crossover region. The crossover must also deal with response aberrations of the drivers and make allowances for the different sensitivities of the drivers.

How to do this is not something we can teach you on this forum.

Lastly changing the impedance of the drivers will drastically alter the crossover frequencies.

Just stop now, before you pour money down the drain.
Okay. I'll stop now. I think I'll go build a tree house instead. Thanks.
 
Keith Roberts

Keith Roberts

Enthusiast
Keith

Welcome to the AH forum ! Hope you have a good experience here.

TLS Guy doesn't think much of your suggested speaker project. Although the advice might sound a bit caustic for a new guy on the forum, TLS Guy is a walking encyclopedia when it comes to vintage equipment. If he thinks you are barking up the wrong tree: he's got some pretty solid reasons. He's really solid when it comes to your topic.

I can't help but compliment you on your Sansui reciever however. I love the look of that thing and if that's a photo of your actual unit, that is a gorgeous piece of hardware. I ran Sansui products back in the day and I enjoyed the heck out of them. I'd be proud to own the receiver you have in the picture even the project you described might not be well founded.

Again, welcome to the forum and you'll find a lot of admirers here for that Sansui receiver.
Thanks Bucknekked:
And yes, I love this Sansui. I also have a Sansui 5000a I am about to get restored and will need a speaker project for it too. I am certainly open for suggestions surrounding supplying my 9090 with a good set of speakers. I would like to build them myself but would certainly consider purchasing some store bought units as well. I would like to stick with JBL components however but again, am certainly open to suggestion. What I am looking for is a good bass reflex, similar to the JBL C35 but with more modern components. Any good designs? If you can even point me in the right direction I will appreciate that as well.
Thanks again Bucknekked,
-Keith
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
Here's another idea, get some vintage JBL's. I like my L100t3's. I've enjoyed them now for over 30 years. I just needed to re-foam 'em last year. I use the L100t3's with a JBL B380 subwoofer, which is also about 30 years old and needed to be re-foamed last year too. I appreciate the sub more than ever now since today's Dance, and House music is soooo full of deep bass, like (Reputation 3:23 Mothica & Icarus Moth Reputation - Single Electronic 2 8). At any rate, I think you can easily get the sound you want with vintage speakers. Whether you'd like the "JBL" signature sound, or not, I can not say.
 
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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
The drivers you have outlines can make a very good speaker, but you need to place them in an enclosure that suits them, and give them a crossover that suits them. The cabinet and crossover you mentioned were designed for very different drivers.

If you want to play around with JBL components, a good forum for that is here, lots of knowledgeable posters there about JBL drivers. Some JBL engineers also post there.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Okay. I'll stop now. I think I'll go build a tree house instead. Thanks.
Ok, so you're new here and you don't know Mark (TLSGuy). You know - you could click on his link to his system photos in his post signature. If this doesn't impress you even a little bit, you're in wrong hobby
I like good sarcastic joke, probably even more than the next guy, hell I think "as good as it gets" is my all time fav comedy movie.
But being new guy, coming here and asking for help, snarky responses are not your best bet to get good help.
Do listen to TLSGuy and Swerd - they both know exactly what they are talking about. Yes, making ala vintage DIY speakers is good thing, but everything needs to match in perfect (as possible) harmony or otherwise sound like poop. It's both science and art.

edit: I didn't write word "poop". damn forum autocorrect :D
 
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Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks Bucknekked:
And yes, I love this Sansui.. I would like to build them myself but would certainly consider purchasing some store bought units as well. I would like to stick with JBL components however but again, am certainly open to suggestion.
Keith
There are a number of DIY threads here and a healthy population of builders. MrBoat (look him up) is a avid DIY builder AND a JBL fan AND he actually builds boats so he's a doer not just a talker. I like your idea of building out a set of vintage (as much as possible) JBL's to go with your Sansui. I think the trick will be getting everything matched up so the end product sounds great. MrBoat has done it so I know it can be done. He can give solid pointers and advice that you can bet your hard earned dollars on because he's built the stuff and it works.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The JBL spec sheet for the 2226 H/J 15” woofer provides plenty of info. Page 1 recommends enclosure volumes ranging from 3-10 ft³ (85-285 L). Page 2 provides the Thiele/Small parameters that allow you to calculate various possible cabinet volumes and estimate their cabinet tuning and performance.

Note that the 2226 is a PA woofer designed for high volume sound, not a hifi woofer designed for low frequency response. It sacrifices clean sound for very high volume – it’s maximum SPL is high, but so is it’s distortion.

Parts Express sells the 2226H (8 ohm impedance) version and suggests two different smaller cabinets:
  • A sealed cabinet of 0.87 ft³ (24.6 L) volume, which provides an F3 of 110 Hz
  • A vented cabinet of 2.03 ft³ (57.5 L) volume, which provides an F3 of 69 Hz
Other cabinet volumes can also work, but they must be calculated from the Thiele/Small parameters. See http://www.jblpro.com/pub/manuals/enclgde.pdf for a number of different suggestions. Search Google for “jbl 2226h enclosure” and you’ll see many more suggestions.

Because you are interested in using this woofer in a 2-way design, the high frequency performance of this 15” driver becomes important. At what frequency can you cross it over to a tweeter in a 2-way design? The first page of the 2226 H/J spec sheet says the highest recommended crossover is at 1200 Hz. On page 2 is a frequency response curve. It suggests to me that 1200 Hz is too high.

This curve shows two important features. It looks like this woofer is going into break-up as low as 800-900 Hz. In an ideal coned driver, the cone moves back and forth as if it were a piston – with a single surface. Break-up is the term for when this ideal piston motion fails, and the surface of the cone appears to move as multiple separate surfaces, often in opposition to each other. It can create unwanted noise, as indicated by the peaks appearing between 1 and 2 kHz. Above roughly 1.5 kHz this woofer’s performance rolls off steeply.

The second feature is the difference between the on-axis and off-axis performance. On-axis response is measured with a microphone directly in front of the driver at 1 meter distance, and off-axis response was measured, at the same distance, but with the microphone 45° off to the side. At or below 500 Hz, the two frequency response curves are the same, but above 500 Hz the off-axis response begins to drop. By roughly 800 Hz, the off-axis response drops about 3 dB below the on-axis response. Below 800 Hz this driver disperses its sound in a wide pattern, creating the possibility of a good stereo image when two speakers are used. Above 800 Hz, this driver beams its sound in a progressively narrower pattern. If you cross over at 1250 Hz, it will beam an important part the mid range. There will be a hole in the middle in the off-axis sound of this 2-way speaker, damaging its ability to create a good stereo image.

For crossover purposes, this woofer should be crossed two octaves below any break-up, roughly 900 Hz, and more importantly at least one octave below 800 Hz the frequency when off-axis performance falls more than 3 dB below the on-axis performance. This is especially true if the cross over slope is 12 dB per octave. If it were me, I’d look to cross this woofer no higher than 500 Hz.

Edit: Crossing over as high as 500 Hz might be pushing it a bit. It might only be possible with a 4th order 24 dB/octave cross over slope. A 2nd order 12 dB/octave slope would require a lower cross over frequency.

I haven't looked into the low frequency performance of the tweeter you mentioned. Is it capable of performing without distortion as low as 500 Hz?
 
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Keith Roberts

Keith Roberts

Enthusiast
Here's another idea, get some vintage JBL's. I like my L100t3's. I've enjoyed them now for over 30 years. I just needed to re-foam 'em last year. I use the L100t3's with a JBL B380 subwoofer, which is also about 30 years old and needed to be re-foamed last year too. I appreciate the sub more than ever now since today's Dance, and House music is soooo full of deep bass, like (Reputation 3:23 Mothica & Icarus Moth Reputation - Single Electronic 2 8). At any rate, I think you can easily get the sound you want with vintage speakers. Whether you'd like the "JBL" signature sound, or not, I can not say.
Thanks. I love the JBL Signature Sound components and was going to use D-130's and DLH175'a with an N-1200 crossovers but they are only rated at 25 watts. Now I realize that it doesn't take much to make those D-130'a scream but I'd prefer to better match my Sansui 9090 rated watts of 125. I then considered the E-130 with a 2246H HF Compression Driver but am now leaning towards the 2226H LF. I have an acquaintance that can design and build crossovers for me but I still need the proper bass reflex cabinets. Maybe someone could suggest a cabinet to use for these 2 components and I'll have the crossovers built. I was thinking about a 10 cu. ft. cabinet but will certainly accept any advice you may have. And thanks again! I will also be checking out that Lansing Heritage Forum as well.
Thanks again!
-Keith
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Keith

If you're serious about DIY speaker building, I encourage you as much as possible to learn to do things yourself. Its fairly easy to learn how to design proper bass reflex cabinets. Buy or borrow a copy of Speaker Building 201 by Ray Alden. It's also available through Madisound. The first few chapters teach you how to determine the cabinet volume (bass reflex or sealed) based on a woofer's Thiele/Small parameters. It's worth knowing how to do that yourself because you can simulate the bass response you get with a woofer based only on those T/S numbers. There are a number of online computer programs that allow you to do trial and error with a number of different woofers without ever buying anything. Once you have selected a woofer and an appropriate cabinet, its higher frequency response narrows down the choices of different mid range or tweeters you have. (In my above post, I quickly walked through that process for your choice of woofer and tweeter.)

Crossovers are more complicated and require both software and tools plus some experience in using them. So if you have a friend who can design crossovers for you, that would be good. With some guidance, it's not difficult to assemble and solder crossovers once they are designed properly.

The Lansing Heritage Forum is a good place to find people who have DIY experience with these types of large JBL PA drivers. I have DIY experience, but its with different types of smaller drivers more suited (in my opinion) to home audio.
 
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Keith Roberts

Keith Roberts

Enthusiast
The JBL spec sheet for the 2226 H/J 15” woofer provides plenty of info. Page 1 recommends enclosure volumes ranging from 3-10 ft³ (85-285 L). Page 2 provides the Thiele/Small parameters that allow you to calculate various possible cabinet volumes and estimate their cabinet tuning and performance.

Note that the 2226 is a PA woofer designed for high volume sound, not a hifi woofer designed for low frequency response. It sacrifices clean sound for very high volume – it’s maximum SPL is high, but so is it’s distortion.

Parts Express sells the 2226H (8 ohm impedance) version and suggests two different smaller cabinets:
  • A sealed cabinet of 0.87 ft³ (24.6 L) volume, which provides an F3 of 110 Hz
  • A vented cabinet of 2.03 ft³ (57.5 L) volume, which provides an F3 of 69 Hz
Other cabinet volumes can also work, but they must be calculated from the Thiele/Small parameters. See http://www.jblpro.com/pub/manuals/enclgde.pdf for a number of different suggestions. Search Google for “jbl 2226h enclosure” and you’ll see many more suggestions.

Because you are interested in using this woofer in a 2-way design, the high frequency performance of this 15” driver becomes important. At what frequency can you cross it over to a tweeter in a 2-way design? The first page of the 2226 H/J spec sheet says the highest recommended crossover is at 1200 Hz. On page 2 is a frequency response curve. It suggests to me that 1200 Hz is too high.

This curve shows two important features. It looks like this woofer is going into break-up as low as 800-900 Hz. In an ideal coned driver, the cone moves back and forth as if it were a piston – with a single surface. Break-up is the term for when this ideal piston motion fails, and the surface of the cone appears to move as multiple separate surfaces, often in opposition to each other. It can create unwanted noise, as indicated by the peaks appearing between 1 and 2 kHz. Above roughly 1.5 kHz this woofer’s performance rolls off steeply.

The second feature is the difference between the on-axis and off-axis performance. On-axis response is measured with a microphone directly in front of the driver at 1 meter distance, and off-axis response was measured, at the same distance, but with the microphone 45° off to the side. At or below 500 Hz, the two frequency response curves are the same, but above 500 Hz the off-axis response begins to drop. By roughly 800 Hz, the off-axis response drops about 3 dB below the on-axis response. Below 800 Hz this driver disperses its sound in a wide pattern, creating the possibility of a good stereo image when two speakers are used. Above 800 Hz, this driver beams its sound in a progressively narrower pattern. If you cross over at 1250 Hz, it will beam an important part the mid range. There will be a hole in the middle in the off-axis sound of this 2-way speaker, damaging its ability to create a good stereo image.

For crossover purposes, this woofer should be crossed two octaves below any break-up, roughly 900 Hz, and more importantly at least one octave below 800 Hz the frequency when off-axis performance falls more than 3 dB below the on-axis performance. This is especially true if the cross over slope is 12 dB per octave. If it were me, I’d look to cross this woofer no higher than 500 Hz.

Edit: Crossing over as high as 500 Hz might be pushing it a bit. It might only be possible with a 4th order 24 dB/octave cross over slope. A 2nd order 12 dB/octave slope would require a lower cross over frequency.

I haven't looked into the low frequency performance of the tweeter you mentioned. Is it capable of performing without distortion as low as 500 Hz?
Wow! That's great advice! Thanks so much. And I'm not committed to the 2226H, I am perfectly fine using a LF which will give me the best sound being pushed by the Sansui 9090. Thanks again!!
-Keith
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
Thanks. I love the JBL Signature Sound components and was going to use D-130's and DLH175'a with an N-1200 crossovers but they are only rated at 25 watts. Now I realize that it doesn't take much to make those D-130'a scream but I'd prefer to better match my Sansui 9090 rated watts of 125. I then considered the E-130 with a 2246H HF Compression Driver but am now leaning towards the 2226H LF. I have an acquaintance that can design and build crossovers for me but I still need the proper bass reflex cabinets. Maybe someone could suggest a cabinet to use for these 2 components and I'll have the crossovers built. I was thinking about a 10 cu. ft. cabinet but will certainly accept any advice you may have. And thanks again! I will also be checking out that Lansing Heritage Forum as well.
Thanks again!
-Keith
Keith,

I like ya, you've got motivation that's for sure; and, you might end up somewhere on the corner of Satisfaction Street and Frustration Avenue. Most folks undertaking DIY speaker projects want to restore something, don't want the expense of a speaker manufactures cabinets, or want a "sound" which cannot be fulfilled with factory stock. I'm not clear on what your objective is except for perhaps making a vintage impression with the Sansui serving as the center piece of your setting.

If I had your needs I'd get a pair of JBL Studio 590's and get some real wood veneer to cover the speakers vinyl MDF covering. You'd then have the sound you are after from the sort of power your receiver can deliver, and the sort of beauty the more expensive JBL Synthesis Speakers are coveted for.
 
Keith Roberts

Keith Roberts

Enthusiast
Keith

If you're serious about DIY speaker building, I encourage you as much as possible to learn to do things yourself. Its fairly easy to learn how to design proper bass reflex cabinets. Buy or borrow a copy of Speaker Building 201 by Ray Alden. It's also available through Madisound. The first few chapters teach you how to determine the cabinet volume (bass reflex or sealed) based on a woofer's Thiele/Small parameters. It's worth knowing how to do that yourself because you can simulate the bass response you get with a woofer based only on those T/S numbers. There are a number of online computer programs that allow you to do trial and error with a number of different woofers without ever buying anything. Once you have selected a woofer and an appropriate cabinet, its higher frequency response narrows down the choices of different mid range or tweeters you have. (In my above post, I quickly walked through that process for your choice of woofer and tweeter.)

Crossovers are more complicated and require both software and tools plus some experience in using them. So if you have a friend who can design crossovers for you, that would be good. With some guidance, it's not difficult to assemble and solder crossovers once they are designed properly.

The Lansing Heritage Forum is a good place to find people who have DIY experience with these types of large JBL PA drivers. I have DIY experience, but its with different types of smaller drivers more suited (in my opinion) to home audio.
Thanks so much! I'll pick up that Speaker Building 201 book and start there! Thanks for the information!! It's greatly appreciated!
-Keith
 

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