Yamaha RX A3060

[TheWarrior]

@TheWarrior, thanks for posting yours. If I can find some time today I will use the same scale and 1/24 smoothing so we can compare our graphs more easily. In my last post, there is no smoothing at all, but as I said, they look almost the same as 1/48. I did it just to humor William, obviously he's aware of that..

I would normally use 1/12 and 1/24 when I want to make some manual adjustments to improve further when I feel Audyssey has done its best. Since the results seem very good already, I have not tried hard to find the time to do any manual tweaking so far. Just fyi, I was too crazy and lazy to get rid of my 3 lesser subs, and I ignored SVS's recommendation to use identical subs. The graphs you see are for 7 channel stereo mode plus 5 subs in total, 2 Energy Veritas and 1 Polk audio for the surrounds, and a PCU12 and PB13U for the L/R.

SVS is smart and realized they could sell more of the same sub, rather than lower the total invoice with a range of products; Or risk damaging the misconception that cone diameter has anything to do with frequency response.

Audyssey did not produce a natural phase response. Notice how the Gaps are widening as frequency increases. To improve on your system, you'd have to erase Audyssey. (which, if you have lots of device names or picture quality changes, would suck cause you have to master reset)

 

[PENG]

SVS is smart and realized they could sell more of the same sub, rather than lower the total invoice with a range of products; Or risk damaging the misconception that cone diameter has anything to do with frequency response.

Audyssey did not produce a natural phase response. Notice how the Gaps are widening as frequency increases. To improve on your system, you'd have to erase Audyssey. (which, if you have lots of device names or picture quality changes, would suck cause you have to master reset)

Sorry, I don't really understand what you meant by "natural phase response". The room has major effects on "phase response" and Audyssey is supposed to work in both frequency and time domains, thereby improving phase related issues. Most subs provide phase adjustment too. Crossover networks typically produce phase shifts that varies with frequency, so I think it is hard to say what is natural phase response. In theory, a good REQ system should try to apply corrective actions to produce results in a room that is closer to the intended results by the creator of the recording. It seems obvious you are not a fan of Audyssey, I hope YPAO can make you smile.

Anyway, I have since moved my couch a little so it is time to plot a couple more graphs and I will then compare the phase with Audyssey on and off, may take a look of the waterfalls as well.

Almost forgot to ask, if you are going to run YPAO, please share the results. If I see evidence that it works equal to or better than Audyssey, my next AVP will be a Yamaha.

 

[ATLAudio]

Until speakers start falling out of the "speaker tree" they, and what they do will not be anything close to "natural."

Phase, at least as presented in the REW Phase & SPL tab is certainly not paramount in sub measurement, but more of a handy FYI. The gaps, I am only assuming are the 'wrap breaks?' I believe that only shows steepness of phase which could change in steepness (and change in distance from the next) without any real audible concern. You can review the unwrapped chart in the tab view preferences.

Also if you want to defeat Audyssey entirely you can simply turn it off and set your levels and distances to default.

I'm also interested in the new YAPO which now applies filters to the subs, bass, and deep bass, like Audyssey does now.

 

[PENG]

I just finished plotting two new graphs, both in 7 channel stereo mode, again Audyssey on versus off. I am actually surprise to see Audyssey didn't change the phase that much. it certainly smooth the response from 20 to 100 Hz, that's all I can ask. Can't wait to see what the latest YPAO can do.

 

[TheWarrior]

@PENG @ATLAudio
You've confused electric phase with acoustic phase - the one you can measure with a microphone. At frequencies below transition, acoustic phase is a basic approximation of the motion of the woofer, which is why the trough gets narrower as it increases with frequency. As those measurements are recorded as a function of time - the duration of the sound sweep- the phase data is very important. Knowing the room dimensions lets you predict which frequencies will either have increased energy or be cancelled out , known as 'resonances' - the kind that color sound, not the kind produce sound like an instrument.

I say master reset because some element of the Audyssey program seems to be maintained even when 'off'. Your measurements reflect that in their phase data. With that many woofers going, it would seem they are not reaching the listening position at the exact same time (normal) and the Audyssey is turning down the volume on one channel or the other at certain frequencies - assuming you have dual sub outs.

Obviously you are satisfied with the results which is all that matters! I just hope that I was able to make a suggestion of where you could find further improvement if you were inclined.

For YPAO, just need to see how long the process is. I'm more than happy to try it, I gave Audyssey a chance on 4-5 different receivers.

I'm making a big push to get my living room fully renovated on rainy days when I can't work on the exterior. Changing just about everything except the speakers, but they are getting repositioned. Hope to have it all show-ready in a month or two!

 

[KEW]

For YPAO, just need to see how long the process is. I'm more than happy to try it, I gave Audyssey a chance on 4-5 different receivers.

[QUOTE="PENG, post: 1175854, member: 6097"]
Almost forgot to ask, if you are going to run YPAO, please share the results. If I see evidence that it works equal to or better than Audyssey, my next AVP will be a Yamaha.[/QUOTE]

What he said!
If the "newest improved" version of YPAO is fair competition for Audyssey, that would be a huge game changer!

 

[KEW]

Neat thread! I'm gonna definitely learn some stuff here!

@PENG @ATLAudio
You've confused electric phase with acoustic phase...

I say master reset because some element of the Audyssey program seems to be maintained even when 'off'. Your measurements reflect that in their phase data.

There certainly is a huge difference between these two Phase plots!
The Warrior's:

PENG's:

So, if I follow, you are saying that the difference is due to some residual artifacts of Audyssey which do not get removed unless a full reset of the AVR is performed?
If so (and if it is easier than a factory reset), perhaps PENG could swap out the AVR with a non-RoomEQ AVR/amp (I believe he has) for a quick measurement of phase without Audyssey "intervention" to verify the "residual artifact" concept (hint, hint PENG).

 

[PENG]

@PENG @ATLAudio
You've confused electric phase with acoustic phase - the one you can measure with a microphone. At frequencies below transition, acoustic phase is a basic approximation of the motion of the woofer, which is why the trough gets narrower as it increases with frequency. As those measurements are recorded as a function of time - the duration of the sound sweep- the phase data is very important. Knowing the room dimensions lets you predict which frequencies will either have increased energy or be cancelled out , known as 'resonances' - the kind that color sound, not the kind produce sound like an instrument.

Thank you for the explanation, but I do know the difference between electrical phase and acoustic phase. The fact is, electrical phase affects acoustic phase, the phase adjustment knob setting will affecdt acoustic phase. If electrical phase does not affect acoustic phase in the room, REQ software won't be able to work in the time domain at all. It is the electrical current flow through the voice coil that ultimately produce the acoustic effects after all.

I say master reset because some element of the Audyssey program seems to be maintained even when 'off'. Your measurements reflect that in their phase data. With that many woofers going, it would seem they are not reaching the listening position at the exact same time (normal) and the Audyssey is turning down the volume on one channel or the other at certain frequencies - assuming you have dual sub outs.

I guess I will have to prove it by resetting my AV8801 to factory default settings. It is hard to believe an ex top line Marantz AVP would have trouble do such a simple task to disable Audyssey completely without a master reset. My graphs did show some difference in the phase chart, just not a whole lot and may be it does not need to do much in the time domain in my room with so may speakers working. I say that because my sub only graphs I took 2.5 years ago did show more difference between the Audyssey on and off phase charts. Actually the L/R were on but I had the XO set to maximum, i.e. 250 Hz, a shortcut I took at the time.

Graphs shown below are without smoothing, you can tell easily which one is Audyssey off.

Obviously you are satisfied with the results which is all that matters! I just hope that I was able to make a suggestion of where you could find further improvement if you were inclined.

I welcome your suggestions, and thank you, regardless of whether I agree with you or not.

For YPAO, just need to see how long the process is. I'm more than happy to try it, I gave Audyssey a chance on 4-5 different receivers.

Please, please take the time to do it.


Waterfalls with Audyssey on:
Top one is with two subs and L/R XO set to 250 Hz, lower one is the 7.1 Ch with all 5 subs from today.

 

[PENG]

Neat thread! I'm gonna definitely learn some stuff here!



There certainly is a huge difference between these two Phase plots!
The Warrior's:

PENG's:

So, if I follow, you are saying that the difference is due to some residual artifacts of Audyssey which do not get removed unless a full reset of the AVR is performed?
If so (and if it is easier than a factory reset), perhaps PENG could swap out the AVR with a non-RoomEQ AVR/amp (I believe he has) for a quick measurement of phase without Audyssey "intervention" to verify the "residual artifact" concept (hint, hint PENG).

I am going to do it just to prove the point, but regarding the phase thing, I don't agree one is better than the other because you have to consider the overall effects. REQs that don't affect the time domain is limited in what they can achieve. Surely there are compromises, it is about getting the best out of it in the overall scheme. The waterfall charts are also important because you can have the best "natural" phase response in the room but the decay time and frequency response could still be a mess.

 

[PENG]

If so (and if it is easier than a factory reset), perhaps PENG could swap out the AVR with a non-RoomEQ AVR/amp (I believe he has) for a quick measurement of phase without Audyssey "intervention" to verify the "residual artifact" concept (hint, hint PENG).

I have to find time to do a reset, but I can fast track you something for now. Below are plots for my Focal and KEF's. You can see that the KEF ones are more like Warrior's. I don't remember if that was close mic,like 1 meter from speaker or from listening position. I have too many graphs done over the last 3 years. None of those involved the AV8801, so there is no Audyssey effect at all and I guess that proves the point already.

I do have a couple that look more than TheWarrior's. It seems to depend on the position of the MIC and the number of speakers. Again, all of them are preamp/amp by separates and in one case, the old AVR-3805 that does not come with Audyssey.

 

[TheWarrior]

Well that was a successful thread jack! Thank you Gentlemen.

PENG: Notice in your measurements that your phase is a negative value, and the swing is opposite of mine. I wonder about the dimensions of your room, rooms it is open to, and the placement of your subs. And getting a measurement from a unit that has never stored any Audyssey calculations.

I am going so far as to study the responses of a number of room boundaries (ex. 1m from corners, gable ceiling etc) so that I may further understand what influence they are having on the listening positions. Obviously this is a living room, and my wife deserves to have a space that is not under construction (I'm renovating the entire house) so it's well past time to have the living room complete. I just wanted to ensure I had the knowledge (and a big thanks to KEW there!) to make it sound good, too, before I worried about making it look good.

I will post a whole writeup on my room once it is finished, with measurements of course. And I'll comment back in here my impressions of the 3060.

 

[PENG]

@TheWarrior, I was going to say the same thing about jack. little wing, the OP, seems receptive to using YPAO and REW, so we are not 100% off topic, but still, time to unjack it. If I have anything new I'll PM you instead. I am still research the "phase response" topic including trying to make sure I interpret the REW plots correctly. Thanks again for bringing up the topic that I have not been paying attention to much.

 

[ATLAudio]

Yeah, there's certainly no confusion point with me in regards to electric vs acoustic phase, but as @PENG said, they are both involved in this exercise.

The direction of the phase shouldn't matter. For example (as I understand it) a positive 180 vs a negative 180 is related to the position of the driver. Also, the steepness, and or the changing of the steepness of an unwrapped phase graph, or the distance of gaps in a 180/-180 wrapped chart is tertiary information, at least by itself. I'd be far more interested in my frequency response, compression tests, and distortion characteristics in the listening area before I became overly concerned with phase response chart behavior.

That said, Audyssey doesn't get phase by distance changing perfect. Mark Seaton does have a very useful approach to post-Audyssey adjusting, which addresses just this.

https://www.scribd.com/document/335726424/Subwoofer-Distance-Tweak-Instructions-Requires-Acoustic-Measurement-Tools

Also I'm 90+% sure that turning off Audyssey and setting distances and levels to default will yield the same results as a master reset for full Audyssey disable. Or you can use Pure Direct + HDMI cable with REW.

Lastly, It seems that almost anyone who's tried all of the REQ offerings available, including the best that Audyssey YPAO, and others have to offer, prefer Dirac Live above all others. There's virtually no exception to this that I've found. I have no experience with Dirac Live but it's readily available in different forms from MiniDSP and no new AVR need be purchased.

 

[little wing]

So how bout that 5th foot on Yamaha's, eh? No , seriously, I've learned a few things following this thread. But I have to admit most of this is over my head, like that 787 I flew back home on last night. (Cool plane by the way) Anyways, I re ran YPAO today using 3 different positions. And sat down to enjoy some music. I am always looking for ways to better the sound, but right now I am just enjoying a Saturday afternoon with some of my favorite songs. but can anybody recommend a decent mic to go along with room eq that I downloaded? And also the cables I will need to take measurements? I appreciate it. You guys are incredibly knowledgeable! This is a wonderful indulgence! Not sure were I'd be without music..

 

[ATLAudio]

You'll need the miniDSP umik1, and the miniDSP itself if you want to save changes, about a $200 investment.

Cables, two long USB cables, and hdmi cable

 

[AUDIOCRAZE]

Hey folks I've tried finding the answer to my question through the forum and can't quite find it so here it goes. I bought the 1050 a year ago and absolutely fell in love with the performance of the unit. Initially I thought that Atmos was just some artificial gimmick but I recently upgraded to Atmos and it's led me down the rabbit hole. I've just fallen in love with the new format. Unfortunately due to the channel limitations I've gone ahead and sold my 1050 and purchased the 3060 which ships out today.

Now that we got that out of the way my question is relating to the sorround sound imorovemtns from the DACs and DSP upgrades and what the community has assessed so far from the 2015 Aventage circuit board to the 2016 models?? For example on my 1050 I noticed that on non ATMOS or DTS X using the surround upmixing decoder I would tend to get a mix bag in terms of performance. On DTSHDMA or Dolby True HD the height channels really wouldn't impove the overall experience with the surround decoder enabled. With music or other content such as Netflix or YouTube it was improved closer to what you would hear with Native Atmos or DTS X but not with last gens surround sound formats. Is this due to the limitation of just having one DAC and less DSP on 2015 vs the current models which were beefed up on the 2060 and 3060?

Essentially the only major difference I've seen aside from 15hz cal on the sub is that the 3060 has a sabre 32 dac and the Premier DAC for the presence channels. How does this translate if at all to a surround improvement??? No one ever discusses this. It seemed a little bogged down on my 1050 under last gen surround sound format do any of you have thoughts or experience on this topic. Thx

 

[little wing]

The 3060 continues to impress. So last weekend we had a 21st birthday party. I hooked up 2 additional speakers (Philharmonic AAs) for a total of 7.1 I ran the unit in 9 channel stereo for about 6 or 7 hours at volumes ranging from -25 db to as loud as -13 db. at one point I got a little concerned so I went over and felt the top of the unit, but it was just a bit warm.. I was concerned because I don't usually play it that loud, but it definitely passed the test! I guess the only question left is longevity, and reliability.

 

[TheWarrior]

The 3060 continues to impress. So last weekend we had a 21st birthday party. I hooked up 2 additional speakers (Philharmonic AAs) for a total of 7.1 I ran the unit in 9 channel stereo for about 6 or 7 hours at volumes ranging from -25 db to as loud as -13 db. at one point I got a little concerned so I went over and felt the top of the unit, but it was just a bit warm.. I was concerned because I don't usually play it that loud, but it definitely passed the test! I guess the only question left is longevity, and reliability.

I've still yet to plug in the mono amps for my Phil 3's, the 3060 has a very impressive amp that does not seem to get hot.

 

[little wing]

I've still yet to plug in the mono amps for my Phil 3's, the 3060 has a very impressive amp that does not seem to get hot.

Exactly, they just don't seem to get hot no matter how hard you drive them. That's interesting, that you have external amps and haven't felt the need to use them. Are the Phil 3's pretty efficient? I don't know the numbers off hand, but I think my Ascends are.. What mode do you normally listen in? I find the Flat setting after running YPAO sounds best to me. For music it's normally the "Straight" mode. Sometimes "Pure Direct" and sometimes Sur decode Neo Music. But it sounds good...

 

[TheWarrior]

Exactly, they just don't seem to get hot no matter how hard you drive them. That's interesting, that you have external amps and haven't felt the need to use them. Are the Phil 3's pretty efficient? I don't know the numbers off hand, but I think my Ascends are.. What mode do you normally listen in? I find the Flat setting after running YPAO sounds best to me. For music it's normally the "Straight" mode. Sometimes "Pure Direct" and sometimes Sur decode Neo Music. But it sounds good...

The woofer is what benefits from the external amp, I'd done a side by side with one speaker connected to a 4520 and the other with the amp. Bass was the most audible difference. The DAC's in the Yamaha are the finest I've heard, there is a noticeable fidelity increase. Whenever the day comes for the 'ultimate', I see the value in something like the CX preamp, it has the upgraded DAC on each channel, not just the front like the 3060. But I'm a long way from upgrading my surrounds.

I haven't tried YPAO, I prefer manual setup. Just been enjoying the Phil's in stereo lately, and yeah pure direct sounds nice!