Audyssey Questions

[Halon451]

Hi guys, so having just bought a new Marantz SR6011 my initial joy over the sound quality has begun to give way to some disappointment over a few peculiarities I've begun to notice. I believe it may have to do with the Audyssey reference corrections that have been applied. I will note that these are all things I never noticed before with my old Pioneer and the same SVS S-series speakers and sub in a 5.1

So I'll list the issues and then list everything I've done to try and correct them.

The problems:

1.) overly trebly sounding vocals with some harshness and almost crackling type sounds on the S's and loud sounds containing higher frequencies such as explosions (specifically shattering sounds I'll get to LFE in a moment)
2.) surrounds are turned up way too loud as to almost completely obscure the front sound stage.
3.) The sub-bass sounds and LFE are present but seems to lack the punch and power that I know that SVS 12" ported sub is capable of. I've been using that thing for years now and I'm very familiar with its capabilities. Overly boomy and feels almost strained
4.) Some content seems boosted in the 200-300Hz range giving vocals a slight "boxy" sound. I only know this range bc I have experience mixing music and know this is the range that I always have to cut a bit to reduce that boxy sound. Again I've used these speakers a long time and know they don't typically sound like this.

What I've done:

1.) Manually reduced the surround levels post-Audyssey which has helped balance them with my front sound stage greatly
2.) Tried multiple mic placement configurations; about the best I've gotten with it so far is by more tightly clustering the 8 points around the MLP at ear height and at least 1.5 feet away from the back wall. Couch is pushed up against the wall.
3.) experimented with Dynamic EQ on and off.. def noticeable improvement at lower volumes with it on but not so much at reference level
4.) repositioned speakers/subs, ad nauseum; have gained only marginal improvement
5.) adjusted all crossover settings back to 80Hz which is where I always had the best results on my pioneer.
6.) varied the LFE crossover settings to every one available.
7.) Tried turning Audyssey off (nope), flat, L/R bypass, etc. overall still sounds better turned on but the above issues are frustrating

So my room is def not ideal by any means.. no chance at all of moving the couch away from the wall, room is way too narrow. I've scoured tons of threads on this topic and find that many others experience the same issues. My question then is: what's the trick to using audyssey? I read that it's "soooo great and way above its competition" but then I read threads like mine and think "man my old one position MCACC did a much better job than this POS."

What are you guys' experience with it? Any tips/tricks that I haven't found or tried yet?

 

[Halon451]

Oh one more thing: Audyssey defines the reference level for my sub output at an almost imperceptible level. I had to crank the gain knob back up on the sub a good bit just to bring back the low end. So the aforementioned boomy and strained sub output was observed after my post-Audyssey adjustments.

 

[Halon451]

Although I definitely hear improvements the program makes with my sound in some respects, it's almost as if Audyssey amplifies the weaknesses in my system and room instead of actually correcting them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[russraff]

First post, but I've had many an AV receiver and can say that I've never really understood why Audyssey gets so much praise. It's not bad, not like the Onkyo AccuEQ system, but I've always had much better success with MCACC.
Audyssey seems, as you have found out, to apply an unnatural veneer to the high frequencies making music far from enjoyable and a little 'hollow' sounding. Audyssey also seems to like setting the sub too low and I've found that its almost like Audyssey wants Dynamic EQ to be engaged at all times to help matters. However, that mode makes the rears seem too 'hot.' Adding 6db to the sub (a Velodyne SPL1200) trim brought things back in line but theres no way of fixing the higher frequencies, unlike MCACC and YPAO.
Basically, I don't like Audyssey and, when I had my Marantz 7010 and a Denon 6200 on home dem, preferred the sound with Audyssey off.

 

[PENG]

I dare say a lot of users don't follow the online Audyssey to the letter. The on screen instructions are reasonable, but for best result you really need to follow Audyssey website instructions to the letter. Also, if you turn it off and it still sounds bad then your problem is not Audyssey but something else.

 

[russraff]

I thought the Marantz sounded quite nice. Warm and rich. Audyssey just messed up the musicality of the system.

 

[Halon451]

I thought the Marantz sounded quite nice. Warm and rich. Audyssey just messed up the musicality of the system.

Yeah I think it sounded better initially before I got too deep in with the Audyssey "corrections" myself. Unfortinately turning it off at this point just results in a very weak, tinny sound. So I don't know..

 

[Halon451]

I dare say a lot of users don't follow the online Audyssey to the letter. The on screen instructions are reasonable, but for best result you really need to follow Audyssey website instructions to the letter. Also, if you turn it off and it still sounds bad then your problem is not Audyssey but something else.

I figured that out early on, yes. Been playing with it all weekend and it's sounding okay.. not as good as I know my speakers and sub are capable of. They're sitting in the same spot they've been in for years and I know how they are supposed to sound. MCACC had no problems getting it all sounding juicy and rich, but I guess more bells and whistles = more headaches lol

 

[Halon451]

Audyssey seems, as you have found out, to apply an unnatural veneer to the high frequencies making music far from enjoyable and a little 'hollow' sounding.

Actually in my experiences thus far music sounds incredible with Audyssey turned on, however my system is normally used for HT and movie watching, only occasionally do I cue up music. Seems there are noticeable frequency gaps in the mid bass region and of course the brightness of voice audio and rather sloppy sounding bass.

 

[russraff]

I think that mcacc is a better system. I had, at the same time as the 6200, a Pioneer lx79 (no idea what the US equivalent is but second from top of the line elite model). The Pioneer won out in terms of room eq - just let it do its thing and the sound in my room was improved vs not having room eq engaged. The Denon could be made to sound okay but it was never what I'd call natural.
I bought an Anthem 710, eventually, but that's another story.

 

[rojo]

I dig Audyssey, but yeah, it does set channels at questionable levels, especially LFE. I always end up turning LFE up usually at least 6 or 7dB just so I perceive it at the same volume as my mains. Re: your surrounds, it could be that they're being leveled at the strength of their initial impulse response, but there is some resonance or standing waves or similar acoustic anomaly making their perceived output a little too pronounced.

Are you using virtual surround modes for listening -- Music for music, Movie for movies, etc? Have you tried Auto? (To access the Auto mode, cycle through Direct --> Pure Direct --> Auto.)

 

[Halon451]

Are you using virtual surround modes for listening -- Music for music, Movie for movies, etc? Have you tried Auto? (To access the Auto mode, cycle through Direct --> Pure Direct --> Auto.)

Nah I leave it set on Auto. I've cycled through all those modes to hear the difference but ultimately I prefer the AVR to determine what the input signal is and produce the appropriate output. Seems to be the best option I've found so far.

 

[PENG]

Actually in my experiences thus far music sounds incredible with Audyssey turned on, however my system is normally used for HT and movie watching, only occasionally do I cue up music. Seems there are noticeable frequency gaps in the mid bass region and of course the brightness of voice audio and rather sloppy sounding bass.

I have plotted graphs to compare the before and after freq response so I know XT32/Sub EQ HT works very well. If you take the time to do it right you will get it in the end. Also, unless you listen close to ref spl, you are going to have to turn DEQ on or at least manually increase your sub level (not lfe) 3 to 6 db. I consider myself a purist, but I leave DEQ on all the time.

 

[PENG]

By the way, which mains and subs do you have?

 

[rojo]

Nah I leave it set on Auto. I've cycled through all those modes to hear the difference but ultimately I prefer the AVR to determine what the input signal is and produce the appropriate output. Seems to be the best option I've found so far.

Could it be that your ear is simply more critical since you're evaluating your new AVR? With your Pioneer you had less reason to be hyper observant, as you had little reason to suspect you'd be getting rid of it. Also, you're using three of the MTM speakers for LCR? They've got some funky response (green trace, blue trace). I've never used Audyssey to try to flatten speakers with a mountainous native response, so I can't attest to success or failure in that regard.

Do you have Dynamic EQ enabled? If not, enable it right this instant.

 

[Halon451]

By the way, which mains and subs do you have?

I have the older SVS S-series; SC-01 (M)'s for L/R, SC-01 for center and their bookshelf counterparts (SVS SB-01's) for the surrounds. Sub is an SVS PB-12NSD

 

[Halon451]

Could it be that your ear is simply more critical since you're evaluating your new AVR? With your Pioneer you had less reason to be hyper observant, as you had little reason to suspect you'd be getting rid of it.

I've definitely considered this. And there may be some validity to the theory I'll admit. Dynamic EQ is currently set to on.

 

[Halon451]

I mean I really think that Marantz is a fine AVR, but Audyssey seems to be hamstringing its true capabilities at least in my setup. I've even considered taking it back while I'm still in my return window and going with a non-Audyssey AVR. Then again, maybe I'm just not giving myself enough time to better understand it and learn how to get the most from it. I do plan to upgrade the speakers at some point, but having just spent so much money on all this new 4k stuff, it may be a little while yet before I'm ready. I don't think it's the speakers though. They certainly aren't the best on the market, but I know them very well and know where their limitations are and what strengths they have. Audyssey isn't playing nice with them, bottom line.

In my reading various threads I came across one suggestion that I haven't yet tried. One user found some success on the harsh high frequency issue by placing the mic directly in line with the main voice tweeter on the center channel. This put it at odds with the recommended "ear height" but he found that his normal ear level was quite off-axis from his center channel's tweeter, so he went with it. And also removed the grills in doing so.. his most reasonable guess was the the off-axis mic placement and grills were causing a low high freq measurement which Audyssey then tried to overcompensate for resulting in the harsh sibilance. Seems rather self-defeating to calibrate with the grills removed if you're just going to put them on and I'm not sure how much grills actually affect the sound anyway, but it's maybe worth trying. My center speaker is angled up so that it's aimed at my head, but I can certainly better ensure that the mic is directly on-axis with that tweeter and see if it helps.

 

[Halon451]

I think the reason that music sounds great is because I normally play music in 2.1 resulting in the L/R speakers handling the audio and omitting the center channel. So it would appear that Audyssey is actually doing a pretty good job of correcting the mains, and I may just have a center channel issue. Which makes sense cause such a large portion of audio gets directed to the center channel when watching movies in surround modes.

Maybe time to invest in one of those miniDSP kits to better tighten up the low end, if my above trick to get that center channel into shape works.

 

[TLS Guy]

Audyssey equalization is a total mess. In any good system Audyssey should only be used for level and distance and NOTHING else. The Eq at a distance I do not believe is possible. Audyssey Eq only ruins the sound of good systems.

I do think that Audyssey sets levels correctly including the LFE. My measurements on two systems that have Audyssey show it to be spot on.

I note that it seems universal these days that subs are set far too high. If that's the way you like it fine, but for classical music a sub set too high is a real quality spoiler. Of you go to the concert hall and listen critically you will be surprised at how little deep bass there is.

Audyssey sets my LFE at around -10 db and my measurements and my ears tell me it is spot on.

The sub is now the most miss used part of people's systems.