Tube Amps ........ No Love ?

[Dave Blount]

Curious as to why there seems to be little (if any) love for tube amplification here on Audioholics ?

 

[slipperybidness]

Curious as to why there seems to be little (if any) love for tube amplification her on Audioholics ?

Too much $ for inferior performance as compared to SS amps! SS amps are superior in every possible metric (as long as you are running within the amp's design specifications).

Take that extra $ and re-allocate it to better speakers and a good SS amp.

I own a DIY Dynaco ST-70 tube amp for what it's worth.

 

[j_garcia]

I've heard some really impressive systems running tubes. That doesn't mean I felt the need to switch my systems to all tube.

 

[TLS Guy]

Curious as to why there seems to be little (if any) love for tube amplification her on Audioholics ?

Solid state amps are arguably superior to tube designs, especially when it comes to driving real world loads. You need to choose your speakers with care, and a lot of good speakers will need to be excluded.

Watt for watt they are much better value.

They are much more reliable and don't need frequent grid bias adjustments to keep them in peak performance condition. (Most users don't do this, and are oblivious to fact that their amp is not performing in as new condition).

They are energy inefficient and makes lost is heat which also adds to air conditioner loads.

If you really are going to own tube equipment, then you really do need service skills and have the equipment to calibrate and check it every 6 months or so.

I can tell you this as I go back before solid state power amps.

And that is the real down to Earth truth on tube gear, especially power amps. When it comes to preamps and voltage gain devices, there is no tube on the planet that has a noise floor as good as stock IC opamps.

Unfortunately there are a lot of deluded Audiophools around presenting 'Alternative Facts!"

 

[Swerd]

A prevailing philosophy around here, if there is a single one, is that speakers are where the rubber hits the road. There are more differences in sound quality among different speakers than among all other audio components.

This makes sense if you consider that devices (transducers) which convert mechanical energy into electrical energy, and the reverse, transducers which convert electrical energy into mechanical, are the steps in audio playback where the most losses in accuracy and energy occur.

Speakers convert electrical energy into mechanical energy. In older days, turntable pick ups converted mechanical energy into electrical energy. Digital storage has largely eliminated pick ups as a source of possible trouble.

Amplifiers, preamps, etc., are electrical devices, not transducers. Their distortion is measured in fractions of a percent, roughly 0.1% to 1%. Speaker distortion is measured in the range of 1% to 10%.

Amplifiers do matter in that they must provide enough power to drive the speakers without audibly distorting or going into clipping.

 

[slipperybidness]

A prevailing philosophy around here, if there is a single one, is that speakers are where the rubber hits the road. There are more differences in sound quality among different speakers than among all other audio components.

This makes sense if you consider that devices (transducers) which convert mechanical energy into electrical energy, and the reverse, transducers which convert electrical energy into mechanical, are the steps in audio playback where the most losses in accuracy and energy occur.

Speakers convert electrical energy into mechanical energy. In older days, turntable pick ups converted mechanical energy into electrical energy. Digital storage has largely eliminated pick ups as source of possible trouble.

Amplifiers, preamps, etc., are electrical devices, not transducers. Their distortion is measured in fractions of a percent, roughly 0.1% to 1%. Speaker distortion is measured in the range of 1% to 10%.

Amplifiers do matter in that they must provide enough power to drive the speakers without audibly distorting or going into clipping.

Agreed!

In general transducers (devices that convert 1 form of energy into a different form of energy) are the most difficult part of any design (not just audio designs) to get right.

 

[ski2xblack]

Around here, tubes are just a nostalgia act, a techno-historical curiosity that has been surpassed by modern technology. If this hobby is about the music, then tube gear is a pointless digression, potentially leading into darker realms, dominated by marketing that preys on technical illiteracy. Commercial tube amp world is knee deep in bs.

On the other hand, DIY tubes can be inexpensive, fun, and educational, as long as you recognize the limitations and can live with the results.

I've always had sensitive, easy to drive speakers around, and curiosity got the better of me so I've owned and built a few tube amps. Turns out I have a preference for the worst of the breed, the little single ended jobs that suck at pretty much everything.

 

[Dave Blount]

Around here, tubes are just a nostalgia act, a techno-historical curiosity that has been surpassed by modern technology. If this hobby is about the music, then tube gear is a pointless digression, potentially leading into darker realms, dominated by marketing that preys on technical illiteracy.

I get the nostalgia part and admit the glow of valves takes me back to my youth and my parents Stromberg Carlson Console that I loved to peek inside !

Ok, so you love rock & roll and your favorite band still uses tube guitar amps does that mean their music is 'pointless' ? ....... far from it !

as for the technical illiteracy, what can I say, I enjoy old Corvettes with points and condenser ignition !

Commercial tube amp world is knee deep in bs.

FWIW the tube amps (Rogue Apollo mono blocks) driving the Logan Neolith's 'mesmerized' the Prez of Audioholics !

 

[j_garcia]

Tubes are used with a guitar because they are after a particular sound - something that is desirable at that stage in the actual creation of music. At the stage of listening to that music, I expect an amp to amplify, not affect the sound.

 

[ski2xblack]

Don't conflate making of the music with re-producing recorded music. Tubes are fantastic for one of those, but pretty far from ideal for the other, in spite of some user's preferences for such things. Gene's favorable impression of those particular amps was likely because they were well engineered amps that performed as they should, not because they used tubes. Gene's hardly the sort to praise amps with distinct audible coloration.

 

[Dave Blount]

ski, again, I understand when you speak of 'ideal' so perhaps the euphoric, nostalgic whatever the description remains inside me .............. I still love vinyl as well !

 

[slipperybidness]

ski, again, I understand when you speak of 'ideal' so perhaps the euphoric, nostalgic whatever the description remains inside me .............. I still love vinyl as well !

What I love about vinyl is all the liner notes and random stuff that the band thought that you needed! And I love the old sales fliers from record companies, posters, etc.

 

[ski2xblack]

There is nothing wrong with having a preference. I must be right there with you, given my own preferences. (See, there is some tube love around here, it's just tempered a bit by pragmatism.)

 

[Irvrobinson]

Martin-Logan is trying to appeal to classic audiophiles, and they frequently use tube amps to demo their systems. For example, in their owners manuals they recommend high-end speaker cables, and claim to have verified that they improve the speaker's sound. This is exactly what a lot of audiophiles want to hear. I just recently auditioned their new Renaissance system, and it sounded quite excellent with a solid state power amplifier. IMO, tube amps for audio reproduction have no benefits whatsoever. To many non-technical types they look cool. I think they look obsolete.

 

[ski2xblack]

Yes, they saturate marketing material of many brands. Klipsch just had a fancy schmancy Leben tube amp paired with their new Forte III at CES. (Any amp builders should look under the skirt of Leben amps, the attention to detail and routing is off the charts. That Leben/ForteIII pairing is rig I could live with, if not justify paying for, at least as a secondary/tertiary system down in the man cave.

)

Edit...I thought it would help expose the ridiculousness of tubes to further break down the rig Klipsch had on display at CES, so here goes:
-ForteIII: $3800 (These are actually pretty kick ass speakers, high sensitivity, fair game for tubes)
-Leben 600CS amp: $5895 (for a beautifully crafted but low power, high output impedance device)
Already, the value proposition is wicked retarded (pardon the un PC terminology), with gross mis-allocation of funds towards the wrong thing. Even from a DIY perspective, the parts cost for the Leben, expensive Japanese iron and all, is probably <$1500 total, which is still an awful lot for an inherently non-linear 32 watt amp.

 

[jliedeka]

Tubes are awesome for guitar amplification but I also have some great solid state amps. Another plus is tubes won't be affected by an electromagnetic pulse. The Soviets used to use tubes in the control circuitry of MIGs.

For general amplification, I'll pass but tastes vary.

Jim

 

[TLS Guy]

I get the nostalgia part and admit the glow of valves takes me back to my youth and my parents Stromberg Carlson Console that I loved to peek inside !

As for the technical illiteracy, what can I say, I enjoy old Corvettes with points and condenser ignition !

Yes, but you are making my point. I have three tractors, a Willys Jeep and a couple of outboard motors with breaker ignition. My generator has Fairbanks-Morse magneto.

However, I know how to keep it in prime condition, and I hope you do to. Properly looked after breaker ignition works very well and gives hair trigger starting. However it needs much more maintenance than modern solid state ignition.

So people fancy they will get a vintage car or tractor or inherit a tractor from grandpa. They they soon find it is a hard start or a non starter, and they are clueless.

Then they find out the old mechanics are dead, or don't want or can't do it anymore. So they ask around and get told give Doc a call. So I end up going to a hobby farm and getting attacked by chickens quite often.

Often major work is required like this.

To get it running like a Swiss watch.

Tube gear is the same. If you don't know how to look after it, it is not for you.

Back in the day Mac had roving teams that conducted amp clinics around the country to keep their tube gear functioning properly. Those days are long gone.

Get my point.

 

[Dave Blount]

Martin-Logan is trying to appeal to classic audiophiles, and they frequently use tube amps to demo their systems. For example, in their owners manuals they recommend high-end speaker cables, and claim to have verified that they improve the speaker's sound. This is exactly what a lot of audiophiles want to hear. I just recently auditioned their new Renaissance system, and it sounded quite excellent with a solid state power amplifier. IMO, tube amps for audio reproduction have no benefits whatsoever. To many non-technical types they look cool. I think they look obsolete.

Irv, M/L is appealing to the lover of music. As for the type of amplification they use in their demo room, it varies all the time. FWIW, I've owned Maggies and Logans for over 35 years, serve as an Administrator on the Martin Logan Forum and yes I've spent some quality listening time not only @ ML in Lawrence, Ks but also @ Overture Audio in Wilmington, De (considered some of the best listening rooms in the country) ...... I know Martin Logan sound.

As for the Renaissance lineup I think you're 'spot on' !

 

[Dave Blount]

TLS .........Love the old Ford !!

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS .........Love the old Ford !!

Yes, that one was towed in here. It needed a huge amount of work. It took a month and needed a complete rewire. Lots and lots of problems. It belonged to a local hobby farmer. After getting it running really well he sold it. It went to another hobby farmer at Leader MN. I have heard he and his wife are thrilled with it.

One of the problems was the owner who contacted me, had connected the battery the wrong way round, not realizing the old stuff is +ve ground!