Tempest Build

[MrBoat]

I'd think of the additional benefits of subs that can go lower not in the sense of output only. Your JBLs just didn't have the bass subs are capable of either. One way to find out

Perhaps the best part of DIY. It doesn't cost near as much to learn.

 

[MrBoat]

Something I forgot to mention of how I arrived at selecting the 12" ultimax. I had either watched an audioholics video, or read an article that convinced me that 2 smaller subs could be better than one bigger sub, and I think the ones they used were smaller yet. Then after reading a lot of opinions claiming 2 subs being better than one, which seemed to make sense to me anyway, that I would ultimately end up with dual subs. The idea of 2-15" subs in this room seems crazy. A single, sealed 15, maybe. But then it seemed that 2-12's would be more robust than a single 15. I've only ordered 1-12 at a time for one because, the shipping is free. Second, I can understand the effects more incrementally, if that makes sense. Also, I think the 12" ultimax is rated for 600 watts. The Tempests are rated at 500w. I will likely never come close to the 100w mark with the Tempests. Even if a sub calls for double the power of the mains, I still can't imagine what that would be coming from even a 12" speaker of any kind. Not for music anyway.

 

[lovinthehd]

Something I forgot to mention of how I arrived at selecting the 12" ultimax. I had either watched an audioholics video, or read an article that convinced me that 2 smaller subs could be better than one bigger sub, and I think the ones they used were smaller yet. Then after reading a lot of opinions claiming 2 subs being better than one, which seemed to make sense to me anyway, that I would ultimately end up with dual subs. The idea of 2-15" subs in this room seems crazy. A single, sealed 15, maybe. But then it seemed that 2-12's would be more robust than a single 15. I've only ordered 1-12 at a time for one because, the shipping is free. Second, I can understand the effects more incrementally, if that makes sense. Also, I think the 12" ultimax is rated for 600 watts. The Tempests are rated at 500w. I will likely never come close to the 100w mark with the Tempests. Even if a sub calls for double the power of the mains, I still can't imagine what that would be coming from even a 12" speaker of any kind. Not for music anyway.

The wattage ratings can't be compared as you're doing, at least not without supporting equal specs in the background which don't likely exist. Best purpose of multiple subs is a better frequency response throughout the room, but if all you're concerned with is a single seat then maybe you'll be happy with a single sub (I probably wouldn't be ).

 

[MrBoat]

The wattage ratings can't be compared as you're doing, at least not without supporting equal specs in the background which don't likely exist. Best purpose of multiple subs is a better frequency response throughout the room, but if all you're concerned with is a single seat then maybe you'll be happy with a single sub (I probably wouldn't be ).

lol. . .well I probably won't be either now that I know you wouldn't be. Thanks!
You people are enablers.

 

[lovinthehd]

lol. . .well I probably won't be either now that I know you wouldn't be. Thanks!
You people are enablers.

The worst kind...

 

[Bucknekked]

You were another that suggested DIY near the beginning of my membership here. That was a great idea. I'd still probably undecided still. Although, after hooking up a new receiver to the JBL's, they really shine now so I'd have probably just stayed with those.

Either way, this was certainly fun to do. I'm considering other designs in the future. The only problem being, is one really can have too much audio equipment in short order. Especially when it comes to speakers.

One thing about this hobby, and this coming from someone who hung drywall for 20 years. It's a heavy hobby once you start doing multiple finish processes to where you have to move and flip these things a lot. And they are usually awkward at this size. By the time I was finished with it, I was considering integrating handles into the cabinets.

Paul,
I finally got around to reading your Tempest DIY project thread. What a great journey. The proof is in the pudding: lots of folks say they have skills. You demonstrated, on camera, that you've got the chops to pull off a pretty daunting project. They look great and your craftsmanship shows.

I am tempted now. But, I'm so danged tempted to do stuff everytime I get up in the morning I have to sleep in sometimes. Doing a project like this would be a hoot. I'll have to noodle on it.

Thanks for the great thread, and those great tunes you have shared.

 

[MrBoat]

Paul,
I finally got around to reading your Tempest DIY project thread. What a great journey. The proof is in the pudding: lots of folks say they have skills. You demonstrated, on camera, that you've got the chops to pull off a pretty daunting project. They look great and your craftsmanship shows.

I am tempted now. But, I'm so danged tempted to do stuff everytime I get up in the morning I have to sleep in sometimes. Doing a project like this would be a hoot. I'll have to noodle on it.

Thanks for the great thread, and those great tunes you have shared.

It's a worthy project and thank you for the kind words. I am surrounded by a lifetime of DIY and my career/s have always involved building things. My mom reminded me here recently of how when I was younger, I used to go pillage the scrap piles on construction sites always bringing wood home and building things with it.

Now I work in marine fabrication. When it came time to get a boat, in spite of all the boats I work on, all the deals I could have gotten just from being in that network, I opted to build a wood one. I could not find a factory boat that suited me in my price range. Found an old set of plans from a museum, and spent all my nights out in the back yard with the 'possums, owls and coons into the wee hrs.

More a glutton for punishment than skilled.

 

[KEW]

Paul,
I believe the 12" drivers will be more than enough for your subs.
I run 15" sealed subs for music and HT. After Audyssey does its thing, I turn them down 4dB for music. They sound fine as Audyssey set them for most music, but every now and then a song comes up that is just recorded bass heavy and I find that is far more offensive then having a little less bass on the other songs (sins of omission are better than sins of comission).
For HT, I turn the sub up by 4-6dB (unless it is a movie about music, a musical, or something) because I like the extra slam/wallop in an action movie.
If they did not do double duty for HT, 12" is more than enough. As I understand it, you are really after a very solid woofer, not a LFE/subwoofer!

 

[MrBoat]

Paul,
I believe the 12" drivers will be more than enough for your subs.
I run 15" sealed subs for music and HT. After Audyssey does its thing, I turn them down 4dB for music. They sound fine as Audyssey set them for most music, but every now and then a song comes up that is just recorded bass heavy and I find that is far more offensive then having a little less bass on the other songs (sins of omission are better than sins of comission).
For HT, I turn the sub up by 4-6dB (unless it is a movie about music, a musical, or something) because I like the extra slam/wallop in an action movie.
If they did not do double duty for HT, 12" is more than enough. As I understand it, you are really after a very solid woofer, not a LFE/subwoofer!

Yeah. The same was happening with the JBL's. Some music was too bass heavily recorded and I always had my trigger finger on the EQ. This is music only. The only movies I watch are on Netflix on this pc and I am happy enough with the 2.1 desktop speaker set up for that, with the small sub half under my desk, point blank like. The woofers on the JBL's are 12". They are rated down to 34-35 hz IIRC. The mid bass 'punch' I am already getting from the Tempests 12's, has to account for something with that effect, I would think. I could see if I was trying to make up a lot of the mid bass as well, like with speakers with smaller mid-bass woofers, perhaps, but I think the Tempests kind of start out as a different animal in that regard.

I could be all wrong but there is really no other way I can find out. My space, so far, has proven to be a bit unique, at least with the general rules. I'd rather have dual 12's and get to have duals, instead of a single 15" being a bit too much. Bass has never been a problem here. Even my 2.1 desktop set up manages to be relatively robust in that regard.

 

[Bucknekked]

It's a worthy project and thank you for the kind words. I am surrounded by a lifetime of DIY and my career/s have always involved building things. My mom reminded me here recently of how when I was younger, I used to go pillage the scrap piles on construction sites always bringing wood home and building things with it.

Now I work in marine fabrication. When it came time to get a boat, in spite of all the boats I work on, all the deals I could have gotten just from being in that network, I opted to build a wood one. I could not find a factory boat that suited me in my price range. Found an old set of plans from a museum, and spent all my nights out in the back yard with the 'possums, owls and coons into the wee hrs.

More a glutton for punishment than skilled.

View attachment 19811

What ever floats your boat.
Sorry. I couldn't stop myself.
Speakers are one thing. But if you can build a boat, you are seriously skilled. That's an age old, honorable craft. I feel like I should have a famous quote ready. Sorry. All I can do is say I am seriousLynn impressed

 

[KEW]

Paul, which Denon are you going to be running for your bass management?

 

[MrBoat]

What ever floats your boat.
Sorry. I couldn't stop myself.
Speakers are one thing. But if you can build a boat, you are seriously skilled. That's an age old, honorable craft. I feel like I should have a famous quote ready. Sorry. All I can do is say I am seriousLynn impressed

Well, it's again, not all that revealing. Where I grew up, people built wood boats in their back yards all the time. The other thing is, most people can do anything they want as long as they don't have to make a living at it.

I was taught woodworking in a rather crude, yet profound way. An old man I used to pal around with set me down with a dull pocket knife, a bolt of wood, and a board with a hole drilled in it. Said to make it fit the hole. When I complained about the crappy knife, he handed me a sharpening stone. Anyhow, that's it in a nutshell. Start out with sharp tools, your parts a little bit bigger than they need be, and manicure them to fit. . . . eventually.

 

[MrBoat]

Paul, which Denon are you going to be running for your bass management?

I have an Inuke 3000dsp for the sub/s, and the receiver I have is the Denon 3805. I haven't even looked into what bass management it has, or doesn't have. That's some dry reading in the users manual.

I'll definitely take suggestions with the bass set up. So far, I am up to, RCA from the receiver's sub, pre-out, to the XLR input of the amp. Speakon connector to raw wire to the binding posts. Turn everything way down, grab fire extinguisher just in case.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have an Inuke 3000dsp for the sub/s, and the receiver I have is the Denon 3805. I haven't even looked into what bass management it has, or doesn't have. That's some dry reading in the users manual.

I'll definitely take suggestions with the bass set up. So far, I am up to, RCA from the receiver's sub, pre-out, to the XLR input of the amp. Speakon connector to raw wire to the binding posts. Turn everything way down, grab fire extinguisher just in case.

Looks to be pre-Audyssey on that Denon but I'd still use it's auto setup as a starting point; setting your speakers to small (or its equivalent) and letting the avr control crossover is pretty much what avr bass management is; some can do it per speaker or per pair of speakers or sometimes only universally. Got a measurement mic? You can implement auto-eq with that Behringer's dsp via REW I believe (and doing so in addition to an avr's autoeq can supplement that autoeq if not simply replace it as autoeq on the sub is the most important). I think I've read that using a TS connector may be less problematic than using XLR.

 

[MrBoat]

Looks to be pre-Audyssey on that Denon but I'd still use it's auto setup as a starting point; setting your speakers to small (or its equivalent) and letting the avr control crossover is pretty much what avr bass management is; some can do it per speaker or per pair of speakers or sometimes only universally. Got a measurement mic? You can implement auto-eq with that Behringer's dsp via REW I believe (and doing so in addition to an avr's autoeq can supplement that autoeq if not simply replace it as autoeq on the sub is the most important). I think I've read that using a TS connector may be less problematic than using XLR.

I found one thread last night on here about bass management with the 3805. I do recall setting the FLR to large when I first hooked this up, or something to that effect.

I didn't see the option with the TS cables until after I ordered the xlr version. I lose page count sometimes between the different languages and it wasn't that easy to see.

 

[MrBoat]

This thread here. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/denon-3805-bass-management-problem.7574/

 

[KEW]

I have an Inuke 3000dsp for the sub/s, and the receiver I have is the Denon 3805. I haven't even looked into what bass management it has, or doesn't have. That's some dry reading in the users manual.

I'll definitely take suggestions with the bass set up. So far, I am up to, RCA from the receiver's sub, pre-out, to the XLR input of the amp. Speakon connector to raw wire to the binding posts. Turn everything way down, grab fire extinguisher just in case.

I was hoping to look at the RC for your unit and see how it manages different setups, but given looks to be a touch screen remote, it is harder to know what controls it offers.
My older Denon has buttons on the remote for "Music", "Movie", "Game", and "Pure" like the colored buttons on the remote below.

It sounds like you only use yours for Music, but you can program the Music, Movie, and Game settings however you like. I'd bet yours has a similar feature, and you can setup the volume of the sub at different levels. For example, you might program the "Movie" setting for the sub to play volume matched with the rest of the system, the "Music" setting with sub at -3dB for songs recorded a little bass heavy, and "Game"setting with sub at -6dB for songs recorded a lot bass heavy. Essentially, you are using these controls to have remote control of you sub volume! For me, remote control of sub volume is very useful. It took me a while of envying the people who bought subs with remote controls before I recognized this feature could do the same!

Also note that since your mains have solid bass, you can play with your crossover frequency to allow the sub volume to be effective at the frequency that works best for you. IOW, my old Sansui '79 AU-717 had buttons next to the bass control to determine whether the bass control was effective at 400Hz or 200Hz. With the crossover, you can look at the above sub volume control as a "sub-bass control" which is effective at 50, 60, 70, or 80Hz.

 

[KEW]

This thread here. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/denon-3805-bass-management-problem.7574/

Just in case... if you are worrying over this, don't sweat it. It sounds like the OP did not understand how the large vs small speaker setting works. Although it may be a bit antiquated, the idea behind this is the sub is there for LFE only, and you would only use a sub for 2 channel music if you desperately needed bass (i.e.- had little satellite/cube mains). Subs are now commonly integrated into high quality 2.1 systems. But the conventions of setup (at least with Audyssey) are to assume you would not use a sub for stereo content.

 

[roadrune]

If you just have a stereo setup for music, then please,please, PLEASE do your self a favour and get rid of the surround receiver and get a proper stereo amp with pre-out for sub instead.

The sound quality cannot be compared IMHO.

 

[slipperybidness]

If you just have a stereo setup for music, then please,please, PLEASE do your self a favour and get rid of the surround receiver and get a proper stereo amp with pre-out for sub instead.

The sound quality cannot be compared IMHO.

The problem is that there are not many of these products on the market!