Newb needs some help: speaker size

[shadyJ]

Shadyj:
Once again, great information to know. But it begs the question: why call them bass traps if the frequencies we so often think of as bass out of a subwoofer aren't affected? I will trust your statement because I literally just did a test case and found it to be true.

I know on this forum there are a lot of very technical opinions and responders. But not a great number of articles or posts on exactly how you treat a room for standing waves or modes. References are made most often to technical research papers on the subject, but hardly anyone ventures an actual "how to" on the subject. I take that to mean there are no easy answers that can be applied across a wide variety of problems. It looks like room remediation is very specific to the room in question and not much generalization is possible.

Thankfully in my little cube, the bad stuff isn't too bad. At least that is what the measurements show.

Bass is anything up to 250 Hz, and some people consider bass to be a bit higher than that in frequency . Subwoofers just take care of lower bass.

Audioholics does have some good articles on this subject. Here is a good one related to your inquiry. Here is another related article. Both are absolutely top-notch writing on the subject.

You have to be careful about "how-to" articles in this area, because many of them are by salesman trying to get you to buy something you don't need. Make sure you can actually benefit from room treatments before you start shopping.

 

[Bucknekked]

Bass is anything up to 250 Hz, and some people consider bass to be a bit higher than that in frequency . Subwoofers just take care of lower bass.

Audioholics does have some good articles on this subject. Here is a good one related to your inquiry. Here is another related article. Both are absolutely top-notch writing on the subject.

You have to be careful about "how-to" articles in this area, because many of them are by salesman trying to get you to buy something you don't need. Make sure you can actually benefit from room treatments before you start shopping.

Shadyj:

I read the article, watched the video, and came away with a new viewpoint on my room. The article you recommended with its accompanying video is probably the most understandable and straightforward treatment of the subject I have been able to get my hands on. The focus on small rooms was particularly helpful.

My room is actually fairly free of nasty side effects. No where near as gruesome as I feared after reading articles on "the ideal listening room". I believe Gene's recommendation for a room like mine would be just about the same as yours : EQ it for the bumps and put in multiple subs if you really want it smoothed out.

I shall hold off on the subs until after my speaker purchase at the end of the month. If I'm going to invest more time in EQ work and other fine tuning, I want to do it with the new speakers. I'm pretty happy with my current setups sound and am happy to stand pat on that until I can get the new hardware. There is no scenario (other than just keeping what I have) that includes me keeping my current sub. Any new speakers will either be able to carry the load themselves (no sub at all) or will come with a pair of subs.

Shadyj: thanks again for a thoughtful and useful answer. Yes, I could keep my current stuff. But, after all this interest in my speakers, I am thoroughly smitten with speaker acquisition disease (SAD) . Its SAD but true

 

[MrBoat]

Watching the video, the statement about 50k worth of acoustic treatment. I just couldn't justify that. For 50k, you could gut that room, re-engineer it for optimum acoustics and still have it look pretty much like a normal room. That would just irk me knowing it was that bad off to start with, so that I had to put band-aids allover it.

Acoustics really needs to be made a new trend with modern home design/architecture. They have it covered ad nauseam with circuitry. I bet they might even discover that a well designed room acoustically, was energy efficient in all the other important ways as well.

 

[Bucknekked]

Watching the video, the statement about 50k worth of acoustic treatment. I just couldn't justify that. For 50k, you could gut that room, re-engineer it for optimum acoustics and still have it look pretty much like a normal room. That would just irk me knowing it was that bad off to start with, so that I had to put band-aids allover it.

Acoustics really needs to be made a new trend with modern home design/architecture. They have it covered ad nauseam with circuitry. I bet they might even discover that a well designed room acoustically, was energy efficient in all the other important ways as well.

MrBoat:
I remember that 50K comment and I was a bit taken aback because he said the room still wasn't perfect. If I spent 50K on room remediation, it better freakin sing acapela. I wonder if he had 50K worth of stuff put in there gratis because of the coverage the vendor would receive? If he actually had to count out 50K benjamins, I dunno about the return on that investment.

This whole idea of fixing your room is relatively new to me. As just a listener and rock n roll head from way back, I never had the luxury of thinking about the room or the acoustics of the apartment or house. What I got out of the article and the video was that's pretty much OK for most folks most of the time. Whew. thank goodness.

A good friend of mine just sent me a link about an audiophile who had to move across country. That move meant he had to move his audio listening space. He was a true over the top, invested gazillions of dollars type audiophile. The type of audiophile that had in person calls with the ownership and technical staff of Wilson Audio to help him with his move. That guy hired an "acoustician" with a Phd in the field to come and help him with his new audio space.

He probably spent more $$ studying and moving his space than I have in my house. Its great to know those guys are out there. I feel so financially responsible everytime I read about one. Here's the link. Somewhere in the article is another link that has about 25 photos of his setup. prior to the move.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?10535-Doctor-s-Orders-Part-Two-The-New-Listening-Room-Of-Steve-Williams

 

[shadyJ]

The funny thing is, as long as you get a flat frequency response at your listening position and have enough headroom to not worry about distortion, there isn't a whole lot more to worry about. And it doesn't need to cost a fortune to achieve that. I have have heard superb setups that cost less than $1K and superb setups that cost $500k. The $500k setups were absolutely nowhere near 500x better. Diminishing returns set in pretty fast for most systems.

 

[MrBoat]

MrBoat:
I remember that 50K comment and I was a bit taken aback because he said the room still wasn't perfect. If I spent 50K on room remediation, it better freakin sing acapela. I wonder if he had 50K worth of stuff put in there gratis because of the coverage the vendor would receive? If he actually had to count out 50K benjamins, I dunno about the return on that investment.

This whole idea of fixing your room is relatively new to me. As just a listener and rock n roll head from way back, I never had the luxury of thinking about the room or the acoustics of the apartment or house. What I got out of the article and the video was that's pretty much OK for most folks most of the time. Whew. thank goodness.

A good friend of mine just sent me a link about an audiophile who had to move across country. That move meant he had to move his audio listening space. He was a true over the top, invested gazillions of dollars type audiophile. The type of audiophile that had in person calls with the ownership and technical staff of Wilson Audio to help him with his move. That guy hired an "acoustician" with a Phd in the field to come and help him with his new audio space.

He probably spent more $$ studying and moving his space than I have in my house. Its great to know those guys are out there. I feel so financially responsible everytime I read about one. Here's the link. Somewhere in the article is another link that has about 25 photos of his setup. prior to the move.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?10535-Doctor-s-Orders-Part-Two-The-New-Listening-Room-Of-Steve-Williams

Now that's being serious about one's audio. I think it was the best approach though, considering the alternatives. Still, whenever that designer aspect thing, that requires a 'specific' expert to resolve it, I see the value of such approaches start to morph into what should be considered, universally ludicrous.

I remember building sound/explosion proof rooms with common building materials, with the most exotic being, resilient (r-channel) channel and sound blanket (horrible stuff to install, unless one isn't put off pulling needle sized shards of glass from between the fingers all day) insulation.

Half of the issues with audio these days is that we've become a little too soft. If I have to have my audio fix, I just move to where it sounds best. In my current room, there is actually 4 spots. No, I can't have group seating where everyone is immersed in audio bliss, but then again, gathering for music is not as social as it used to be anyway, and to get a group together for that sole purpose, 'may' amount to 5% of the usage.

 

[MrBoat]

The funny thing is, as long as you get a flat frequency response at your listening position and have enough headroom to not worry about distortion, there isn't a whole lot more to worry about. And it doesn't need to cost a fortune to achieve that. I have have heard superb setups that cost less than $1K and superb setups that cost $500k. The $500k setups were absolutely nowhere near 500x better. Diminishing returns set in pretty fast for most systems.

That's exactly right. You know when you've got it right when you have to travel a good ways to find something that sounds as good with any regularity, and the relief when you can get back to it easily enough just by going home.

 

[Bucknekked]

The funny thing is, as long as you get a flat frequency response at your listening position and have enough headroom to not worry about distortion, there isn't a whole lot more to worry about. And it doesn't need to cost a fortune to achieve that. I have have heard superb setups that cost less than $1K and superb setups that cost $500k. The $500k setups were absolutely nowhere near 500x better. Diminishing returns set in pretty fast for most systems.

Spoken like a true Audioholic. Use the science and let it tell you when the problems are solved. Its my favorite aspect of this forum. I can get an objective view if I want one of both the problems I may have and the solutions to fix them. I truly believe that even though a hobbyist will spend more money on his toys than the average consumer, the value obtained is much higher. I think there is much less excess or outright waste if one pays attention to the basic tenets that get stressed here.

I feel like when I do spend some cash on upgrades, it won't be wasteful or just for the ostentatious nameplates. It will be in that sweet spot of good value and an actual, audible upgrade. At least I hope so.

 

[Bucknekked]

Today is a good day in the neighborhood. Like the meme says, some days just start better than others.
In a lot of discussion threads, people ask for advice on what gear to buy. Then a lengthy back and forth ensues. Most of the time: nothing happens. The OP just falls off the face of the earth and we never hear what happened. Or the thread gets hijacked and never comes back. Not so here !

Today, after much discussion and exchanging of ideas and information, I ordered a pair of Salk Songtowers from Jim Salk. I put my money where my mouth formerly was and sent some benjamins to Salk Audio.
It will probably be near April when they are done and make their way to my house. I will try not to invoke my OCD nature and think about them and post about them every day. It will be hard.

 

[Dave Blount]

Congrats on the Salks ! as you probably know there is a whole sub-forum over @ Audio Circle for them.

April will be here before you know it !

ps - love the poster !

 

[shadyJ]

Very nice choice. Make sure your listening position places your ears at least somewhat level with the tweeters.

 

[Swerd]

Today is a good day in the neighborhood…
Today, after much discussion and exchanging of ideas and information, I ordered a pair of Salk Songtowers from Jim Salk. I put my money where my mouth formerly was and sent some benjamins to Salk Audio.

It will probably be near April when they are done and make their way to my house. I will try not to invoke my OCD nature and think about them and post about them every day. It will be hard.

Yes, a very good day in the neighborhood . Congratulations on a great choice. How many times today have you logged into the Salk Sound Project Tracking site ?

My room is actually fairly free of nasty side effects. No where near as gruesome as I feared after reading articles on "the ideal listening room". I believe Gene's recommendation for a room like mine would be just about the same as yours: EQ it for the bumps and put in multiple subs if you really want it smoothed out.

Here's a heads up with room EQ'ing. People who own Salk or Philharmonic Audio speakers tend to dislike the results of room response EQ software, such as REW or Audyssey. This is especially true at frequencies above roughly 200-300 Hz.

More often than not, they switch it off and let the speakers sound like Dennis Murphy originally EQ'd them. I'm one of those, except my AVR is old enough to have no Audyssey in it, so I have no choice. I have heard other more modern AVRs where the automated room EQ "sucked the life out of" Salk speakers. In my opinion, as well as others, the speakers sounded better without the automated EQ.

Of course, your experience may vary.

 

[Pogre]

Congratulations Buck! I'm stI'll fairly fresh with that new speaker feeling too. That's awesome.

 

[Bucknekked]

More often than not, they switch it off and let the speakers sound like Dennis Murphy originally EQ'd them. I'm one of those, except my AVR is old enough to have no Audyssey in it, so I have no choice. I have heard other more modern AVRs where the automated room EQ "sucked the life out of" Salk speakers. In my opinion, as well as others, the speakers sounded better without the automated EQ.

Of course, your experience may vary.

When the speakers arrive, I know at a minimum I will be resetting my AVR and setting it up from scratch.
I may simply do a SPL balance with my meter and call it a day, or, go through the setup and see what it brings. I'm sure Jim will have some advice as well. Its two months away, but I'm excited to give it a whirl.

 

[Bucknekked]

Congratulations Buck! I'm stI'll fairly fresh with that new speaker feeling too. That's awesome.

pogre
hmmmmmm, that new speaker sound...........

 

[Bucknekked]

Very nice choice. Make sure your listening position places your ears at least somewhat level with the tweeters.

I may get out the laser leveling device and make sure................

 

[shadyJ]

I may get out the laser leveling device and make sure................

Vertical MTMs should have good, broad horizontal off-axis response, but may have a narrow vertical dispersion pattern. This means you don't want to be listening too high or too low from the mid woofers and tweeter. I have heard a handful of Salk speakers in the past, they have all been exemplary. You will certainly enjoy your Songtowers.

 

[MrBoat]

I may get out the laser leveling device and make sure................

Servo-actuated, articulated speaker stands. Little toggle control on your seating position. Just in case you feel like sitting with your head tilted.

Congratulations on the new speakers.

 

[Ponzio]

It will probably be near April when they are done and make their way to my house. I will try not to invoke my OCD nature and think about them and post about them every day.

yeah, u keep repeating that to yourself Sunshine.

Congrats

 

[Bucknekked]

Servo-actuated, articulated speaker stands. Little toggle control on your seating position. Just in case you feel like sitting with your head tilted.

Congratulations on the new speakers.

sounds like a welding project to me. I do have power to my listening chair. should be simple to get the whole servo-actuated, articulated stands thing up an running before April.