Would like suggestions for low-end audiophile towers

[BoredSysAdmin]

Dear Jack,
I think you're largely missing the point. If you want the finished look just like photo you found - you'll need to go with in-wall speakers. They are designed to work inside other material like walls or furniture
Regardless of typical dissing Klipsch, don't disregard their THX-Ultra line - they are very worthy competitors (a bit overpriced, but still great system)

 

[rojo]

Maybe your idea would work with some strategically placed acoustic panels? Might be worth involving GIK Acoustics in the conversation as well.

 

[KEW]

Yes, I will be using subs however I use them a little different than most people. For my own tastes, I like the bass frequencies that towers generate better than those generated by subs. They just seem to sound better for some reason. So I try to have the sub crossovers set as low as reasonably possible. That’s why I’ve always been a fan of very clean amps that have the power to deliver strong clear bass signals and still sound neutral. The less sub involvement the better as far as I’m concerned.

I have a couple of comments on your statements about subwoofers being a problem for sound quality. I went through the same thing.

First comment -
I have heard the SVS SB12 plus and PC12 subs and they are sloppy subwoofers to my ear. I bet yours are similar in sound. I think you can blame the subwoofer for most of your problems!
I would suggest you try either PSA sealed or Rythmik sealed subwoofers. I am suggesting sealed because they are the ones I have personally heard and know to have a different sound character as compared to the SVS ported.
Alternately, the SVS SB13-Ultra seems like a pretty good design from SVS based on this comparison with a Rythmik sealed sub:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1471574-rythmik-e15-vs-svs-sb13-ultra-4.html#post24544440
PSA will let you audition their subs for 30 days and if you don't like, they will (like SVS) even pay return shipping! So it costs you nothing to see for yourself! The PSA S1500 is the model I have heard, but I know he uses the same design philosophy for all of his sealed subwoofers so am comfortable that other sealed models would be as quick. Talk with Tom V at PSA (Chat box will usually appear when you go to his site). For your room he can help you determine the best subs to use - his ported may be as tight as the sealed for all I know. All I can say is his sealed subs are excellent!

Second comment -
What AVR/preamp do you use? In your price range, you can get a speaker with great bass for traditional music and do not need to use subs. Many modern AVRs have the ability to retain different sound configuration settings. For music, you can by-pass the subwoofers and for HT you can include them. In my personal setup, I use subwoofers for both HT and music, but run the subs about 6dB louder when I run HT - I enjoy the extra bass in action movies. Most of the Denon and Marantz AVRs have "Music", "Movie", Game" and "Direct" buttons to switch between different configurations (of course, you cannot customize the "Direct" setting). I would be surprised if other AVR's do not have this feature.

 

[Jack N]

BoredSysAdmin – Thanks for being persistent in pointing things out. Sometimes it takes a while for things to sink into my skull. My wife is more than willing to remind me of that all the time!

Actually, I am aware of the performance vs aesthetics issue. I’m not bound and determined to have the room look a certain way, but I am going exhaust every possibility of doing so before I change the plans. Know what I mean? Just a few minutes ago I took up Mr. Murphys’ offer and sent him an email describing in more detail how I’d like to have the room set-up. I’d like to get his feedback before making any changes. I’ll keep your comment about Klipsch in mind just in case.

Rojo - I’ve had a concern about the acoustics ever since the beginning of the project as the room layout is far from ideal. “Ready Acoustics” is only a few miles from here so I thought I’d see if I can get them to come out for a consultation when the time comes.

KEW – Glad to hear I’m not the only one who’s not a big fan of subs. I have 2 of the older analog versions of the SVS PB12+ from a previous system. If you think they’re sloppy that might be why I’m still not a sub fan. Although I do have to say they are easily the best sounding subs I’ve had so far. I may have to upgrade those as well. However I’m starting to change my mind on which main speaker to use and might go with the Philharmonics 3. I may not even need a sub. I’m waiting to see what Mr. Murphy has to say before making any more decisions. If I do end up going with the Philharmonics 3, what kind of power do you think I’ll need to power the woofer (ScanSpeak Revelator 8”) adequately without needing to use a sub? Last month I purchased 2 Outlaw Model 7900’s which I think are the ATI 6707 rebadged. Would that be enough?

I haven’t picked a pre-amp yet but I have a tendency to lean towards Yamaha for that type of thing. I’ll keep your comments in mind about remembering settings.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Hmmm. the last person who called me Mr. Murphy was a state trooper. I've looked over the plans you sent me, and as others have pointed out there are some problems. In no particular order, there's the issue of listening position. If you place the towers on a shelf that's above the subwoofer, you will be listening at something like the woofer level. That puts you way below the design axis (the tweeter), and there will be suckouts in the crossover regions, as well as attenuated highs (although that might not be serious). Second, you would need either a sealed design or a front port. And even then you would have to seal off any area to the side or above the speaker to prevent cavity resonances from the tower enclosure you're building. That rules out the Phil 3, because the ported termination of the transmission line is on the top of the woofer cabinet at the back. The Song 3 could be built with a front port. Finally, as others have discussed, there's the issue of baffle step compensation. Forgive me if you've explained this elsewhere, but will the screen be flush with the front of the structural towers? If not--if the screen will be back a couple of feet--then the baffle step compensation issues will be less important. If the screen is going to be flush, there could be a problem. I take it there would be some space behind the screen? If the screen material allows frequencies in the 500 Hz - 1200 Hz region to penetrate at least somewhat, then maybe you can avoid serious problems. If the screen acts more like a wall, then the crossover will ramp down the lower mids and leave you with a bass-heavy presentation. That would be exacerbated by the close proximity of the speakers to the room corners. I kind of have to agree with the others--I think those tower enclosures are going to look a lot better than they will sound. And they will limit your choice of speakers. I cans see a pair of Phil 3's behind an acoustically transparent screen operating smoothly without subs........................ Just saying.

Whatever you end up, I think you have plenty of power.

 

[KEW]

Those ATI/Outlaw amps are perfect for the Phil3's.
The Phil3 is a great speaker for full range duty for music (I have a pair), however you will want more bass if you want the dinosaur stomp to shake your floor in HT!
Recommendation would be to keep your current subs for now if you go with that type of configuration. I find for home theater I don't mind the sloppiness of a sub like the SVSs I have heard! It is only in music where it is so offensive. Obviously I am not that familiar with what a real explosion sounds like and a sloppy explosion sounds pretty damn good to me! For home theater we are really talking special effects for the bass and I think your SVSs will sound fine. Down the road you should consider the PSA if you ever feel that there are problems or if you decide to start listening to dubstep!

PS- for clarification, I use Klipsch speakers for my home theater and those are the speakers that I use a sub with for both music and home theater. Just want to make sure you understood that my earlier post was not in reference to the Phil 3. The Phil3'S are the best sounding speakers I have heard to date!

 

[everettT]

You can always turn the JTRs upside down and I also like the Phil's behind a transparent screen

 

[Swerd]

That rules out the Phil 3, because the ported termination of the transmission line is on the top of the woofer cabinet at the back.

To illustrate, the Phil 3 comes in separate cabinets, one for the woofer, and the other for the midrange/tweeter. The port at the end of the folded transmission line in the woofer cabinet is the rectangular opening on top of the woofer cabinet near the back. If I understand correctly, it cannot be easily relocated.

I agree with KEW, the Phil 3 is among the very best sounding, if not the all-time best sounding, speaker I've ever heard. Your Outlaw amps will be plenty powerful for them.

 

[Jack N]

“Hmmm. the last person who called me Mr. Murphy was a state trooper.” Umm, I must not have mentioned that I am a state trooper. Just kidding! Ok, so I’ll call you Dennis. Thank you Dennis for your evaluation. It’s not what I wanted to hear, but it’ll keep me from building a poor sounding room so certainly a big thank-you for that.

And a big thank-you to the Audioholics posters who recognized the flaw in my planning. When you have what you think is a good idea, it’s tough to hear that it’s not going to work the way you thought it would. But it sure beats finding out the hard way! So an AT screen it will be.

Kurt – Now that I’ll be going to an AT screen, it’s more likely that I’ll go with the Phil 3’s rather than the Song3’s. I’ll plan on using the subs similar to the way you’re using them. Makes sense.

everettT – Like the sense of humor. And another vote for Phils behind an AT screen. Good. Sounds like I’m headed down a better path now.

 

[rojo]

Good. Sounds like you have found the path. A center channel from salksound.com would be a good match for the Phil 3's when you're ready to shop for a center. Or since you're going with an acoustically transparent screen, a third tower would also be worth considering. Wonder whether Dennis would sell a single Slim Tower?

 

[Jack N]

A third tower is exactly what I was thinking. I'm starting to think I'm going to like an AT screen better than I thought. Not only can I use better speakers but it will be considerably easier to get them set-up. Also I can use a larger screen and it will cut down on my construction time. I could also use a motorized screen to get it out of the way for when I want to listen to music. Ya, I'm starting to like this more.

 

[herbu]

Now that I’ll be going to an AT screen, it’s more likely that I’ll go with the Phil 3’s

I don't think you'll be disappointed. I also have a pair and can tell you they are fantastic. Mine is a big room, cathedral ceiling and open to the foyer and dining room. The Phil3s easily handle music at any level w/o my subs. (And if you're putting them behind a screen, you don't have to pay for an exotic finish.)

 

[KEW]

(And if you're putting them behind a screen, you don't have to pay for an exotic finish.)

But now that Salk is doing furniture grade work on the cabinets for Dennis, it would almost be a crime not to have them look stunning!