Wrong set up, speakers or ears? Help!

[Dmitry]

Hello everyone.

I was saving quite a while for a set of expensive (~$3800 USD) speakers and was expecting to be blown away by the sound of it. Unfortunately after setting everything up and playing my favourite songs I felt very disappointed as I prefer my old computer speaker (~$150 M-audio 42) over new speakers!

I am hoping that somebody might able to help me understand wether I have an issue with speakers, set up or acoustic qualities of the room, maybe no issue at all.

I am not strong in audio terms, and will try to explain issue to my base extand.

First, the fact that in order to achieve full/reach sound I have to increase volume to a level when it is not very easy to talk to person next to you. If lower the volume it won’t sound vivid, it feels like speakers are a bit far away.

In contrast with my computer speakers that on low level produce clear/ vivid sound.

The second problem is actually most problematic to me.

I spent over 5 hours moving speakers and changing settings to get best sound, still I don’t get to near the type of sound that I get from computer speakers.

If I to use everyday vocabulary to describe feelings from my experince of listening to computer speakers it would be bonding.

Makes any kind of music listen with pleasure.

It projects sound to all around your head. Feels almost you can touch the instruments. It also vivid but kind of soft, warm sound.

In contrast my new speakers have very clear sound but what is missing is that being in a middle of the action feeling. The feeling with new speakers like I am watching concert, loud and clear.

So is it my individual preference or other issue in place? please give me any ideas I have still few days to return the speakers.

RV - yamaha A850 ( sound mode NEO:6 or DG PLII music)
Speakers
Front M100
center VP180
surrounds QS8


Room:
walls are empty
hard wood floor
speakers are about 6 feet from side walls
size
19’ wide, 26’ long 10’ high

 

[KenM10759]

Never heard of those speakers. What brand or brands are they?

Room...you have the equivalent of a cave. Sound bouncing off of everything, crossing paths with itself. Get some rug or carpeting, hang some stuff on the walls!

 

[Dmitry]

Never heard of those speakers. What brand or brands are they?

Room...you have the equivalent of a cave. Sound bouncing off of everything, crossing paths with itself. Get some rug or carpeting, hang some stuff on the walls!

The speakers are Axiom ,
The room is open concept, 1/3 is kitchen following by couch and then tv stand

 

[KenM10759]

How are you placing these speakers? Got a diagram or photos?

The mains and center are 4Ω and the surrounds are 8Ω, I don't know how that affects a 100w/ch (2 channels driven) receiver but it should be fine. I really think you've got more of a room problem than a components problem.

 

[Dmitry]

How are you placing these speakers? Got a diagram or photos?

The mains and center are 4Ω and the surrounds are 8Ω, I don't know how that affects a 100w/ch (2 channels driven) receiver but it should be fine. I really think you've got more of a room problem than a components problem.

Diagram is attached

 

[KenM10759]

You should have good sound quality at any volume with that, I'm thinking you need to treat the room a little.

Have you run the YPAO calibration with your receiver?

 

[Dmitry]

You should have good sound quality at any volume with that, I'm thinking you need to treat the room a little.

Have you run the YPAO calibration with your receiver?

I did run it on my initial set up, however did not read any parameters as I don't know what they suppose to tell me, later I read that some time it could be wrong, so I am going to rerun it again and post it here in an hour.

 

[markw]

Did you hear the speakers before buying them or did you buy them based on what you read in the internet?

Keep in mind that speakers are a matter of preference. One man's candy might be another man's poison.

That's not to say that either is bad. There are many fine brands but they each have their own particular character. Once you get the room treatment issue taken care of (any speaker will benefit from that) and you still don't like the sound, then it's time for a divorce and to look for a new flat mate that more suits your tastes.

 

[lovinthehd]

Were you using your computer speakers near-field or at the same distance in this room? Was it a 2.1 computer setup? No sub with the new speakers? May just be to an extent what you became accustomed to hearing, maybe its your overall preference maybe you need some time to appreciate what should be higher fidelity and spl capabilities. Maybe you need to go through the setup again (are you using YPAO?), but some absorption (wall hangings, carpets, furniture) in that room would probably help what with all the bare surfaces and empty status....

 

[KenM10759]

...and always run the YPAO again after changing things.

 

[mtrycrafts]

How does it sound with just on stereo mode.
Perhaps you have speakers out of phase?
Yes, bare everything in that room is the worst case especially if not near filed listening.

 

[KenM10759]

I would like to think that YPAO would find out-of-phase speakers quickly. I know Audyssey does!

 

[mtrycrafts]

I would like to think that YPAO would find out-of-phase speakers quickly. I know Audyssey does!

Well, one would think. Wonder if his room is giving that YPAO a hard time with calibration.

 

[Dmitry]

Were you using your computer speakers near-field or at the same distance in this room? Was it a 2.1 computer setup? No sub with the new speakers? May just be to an extent what you became accustomed to hearing, maybe its your overall preference maybe you need some time to appreciate what should be higher fidelity and spl capabilities. Maybe you need to go through the setup again (are you using YPAO?), but some absorption (wall hangings, carpets, furniture) in that room would probably help what with all the bare surfaces and empty status....

I use my computer speakers in different room with the me sitting next to them, I had to add stands and tilt them a bit to make them sound better.

You should have good sound quality at any volume with that, I'm thinking you need to treat the room a little.

Have you run the YPAO calibration with your receiver?

I attached results.

I didn't know that I have to rerun it, also I realized I hold microphone improperly. After rerun things have changed a lot. The sense of warmer sound and bass appeared however still lucking feeling of being surround by sound. It still sounds like watching a concert. thanks for everyone suggestions

 

[KenM10759]

So you aren't using a subwoofer. With an Audyssey system there's a setting for the speakers as "large" or "small" which sets the crossover in a specified range in "small", while sending a full range signal to the mains if set as "large." I don't know how YPAO handles this. Without a sub you do need to be sending the full range of frequencies to the mains.

From your photos of the output, it does appear the receiver is sending full range signal to the L-R mains because there's no crossover value given as it does for the surrounds.

Another thing to consider with using that type of surround speaker, they do need walls to bounce sound. You might have been better off with traditional stand mount/bookshelf speakers if those are free-standing.

I checked the Axiom website for specs on the M100 V4 speakers and though it says "31hz to 20khz" @ +/3dB, the one time I was able to get the frequency response chart to open it showed something far different. Methinks you should add a sub if you expect really good bass from movies and a lot of today's music.

EDIT: Found the link to the chart HERE

You can see it falls off at a higher number than their specs state. Or, perhaps I'm reading it wrong.

 

[herbu]

I use my computer speakers in different room with the me sitting next to them

Dmitry,
I think this is the difference. In one case, you are in a smaller room with speakers right next to you, very close to your ears. Now you're in a bigger room with speakers much farther away.

All the advice you've been given is good, and it will be to your benefit to learn about your receiver, YPAO and room. But in the meantime, one thing might give you what you want.

What mode in your AVR are you using to listen to music?
Your Yamaha has various modes designed to sound like various real world locations, like a small jazz bar, or a rock concert hall, etc. You can also chose All Channel Stereo which engages all your speakers. I suggest trying these modes and see if one gives you the immersive experience you want.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

My 2c - it's definitely the speakers - Axioms have been very stagnant in last decade, while many competitors rushed to surpass them in every possible way.

read this comment by very experienced audio engineer (TLSGuy)
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-axiom-vp180.66581/#post-729703

I say - return them asap and get yourself better speakers.
http://emptek.com/
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/
http://www.nhthifi.com/
http://philharmonicaudio.com/
https://www.aperionaudio.com/
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hb-1.html - I have heard them - while not perfect - they create stunning quality sound for the price and will be very good choice for HT use.

 

[Dmitry]

So you aren't using a subwoofer. With an Audyssey system there's a setting for the speakers as "large" or "small" which sets the crossover in a specified range in "small", while sending a full range signal to the mains if set as "large." I don't know how YPAO handles this. Without a sub you do need to be sending the full range of frequencies to the mains.

You can see it falls off at a higher number than their specs state. Or, perhaps I'm reading it wrong.

Sale rep convince me that M100 will give enough bass for room of my size. So that is why I dint get sub

Dmitry,
I think this is the difference. In one case, you are in a smaller room with speakers right next to you, very close to your ears. Now you're in a bigger room with speakers much farther away.

All the advice you've been given is good, and it will be to your benefit to learn about your receiver, YPAO and room. But in the meantime, one thing might give you what you want.

What mode in your AVR are you using to listen to music?
Your Yamaha has various modes designed to sound like various real world locations, like a small jazz bar, or a rock concert hall, etc. You can also chose All Channel Stereo which engages all your speakers. I suggest trying these modes and see if one gives you the immersive experience you want.

I used PLII music or Neo:6

I am finding to prefer stereo mode over 5.1, also I was able to get much closer to the sound of my computer speakers by tilting the towers inward, it looks unusual but produce that similar sense of surround by sound.

I decided to return speakers anyway and try some other pairs to compare.

My 2c - it's definitely the speakers - Axioms have been very stagnant in last decade, while many competitors rushed to surpass them in every possible way.

read this comment by very experienced audio engineer (TLSGuy)
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-axiom-vp180.66581/#post-729703

I say - return them asap and get yourself better speakers.
http://emptek.com/
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/
http://www.nhthifi.com/
http://philharmonicaudio.com/
https://www.aperionaudio.com/
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hb-1.html - I have heard them - while not perfect - they create stunning quality sound for the price and will be very good choice for HT use.

I live in small town in Canada. Shipping is pretty expensive from USA ...
I am using it for 70% music listening

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

There plenty of Canadian AH members and greats speaker brands:
PSB, Totem, Paradigm and bunch of others I am not very familiar with.
Axiom, while is canadian - is not your best choice

If you're interested in 70% music, I'd say return all 5 axioms, get just a 2 good fronts and you would like overall sound much more.

btw: Audio salespeople are typically besides have their own agenda are also very often incompetent in audio. So do yourself a favor and take what they say with a grain of salt.
You'd need a sub in any case, since none of speakers at your budget could replace it.

 

[markw]

Sale rep convince me that M100 will give enough bass for room of my size. So that is why I dint get sub

So, how's that working out for ya? Remember, salesman care less about your satisfaction than making a sale.

I used PLII music or Neo:6

I am finding to prefer stereo mode over 5.1, also I was able to get much closer to the sound of my computer speakers by tilting the towers inward, it looks unusual but produce that similar sense of surround by sound.

This could be the crux of your dissatisfaction.

Stereo music is two channels. That's all it will ever be.

you can feed those two channels through a matrix in your receivers DSP to get "something, but it won't be as clear or realistic as would it be if you started with 5 discrete channels. ...but you'll be using all the speakers you paid for.

That's probably why you prefer the cleaner, natural sound of two channels being played in two channels on your computer system.

Personally, I play back music in the format it was recorded in. Two channels are played back in stereo, multi-channel music in the format it was recorded, be it SACD or Blu-Ray audio. Whenever I try to use that "matrixed" 5.1 channel sound I'm disappointed. It's ok for a party but not for critical listening.

you might want to try playing your two channel music back in plain old stereo.