Amp/Pre amp better sound quality?

T

trEs2b

Junior Audioholic
Can a preamp improve sound quality?
What improves sound quality more pre amp or amp?
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Depends. Whichever has the poorest sound quality, and it could be either, determines the final result.
 
T

trEs2b

Junior Audioholic
Does it matter if the amp and pre amp are from the same company or they can they be complete different?

I have a ROTEL AMP but thinking of getting a new PRE AMP
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Can a preamp improve sound quality?
What improves sound quality more pre amp or amp?
There is an awful lot of nonsense about this out there. A preamp is a high variable gain voltage amplifier.

A power amp has voltage and power gain, and is the more problematic.

Now it is easy and cheap to make a good voltage gain amplifier. Now forget the tube nonsense. A cheap 50 cent opamp chip is more linear and has better signal to noise than an exotic expensive tube. That is not debatable. So getting a clean voltage gain stage is relatively cheap and easy.

Now the next part is where it gets tricky. The tricky part is facility. That depends on what you want to use it for. Do you want digital decoding? Do you want full bass management? Do you want a lot of flexibility in the phono stage, to optimize LP playback? It is these kinds of issues that have a much bigger bearing on sound quality and enjoyment than the last nth part of an ultra low distortion spec.

Frankly I don't think a minimalist "straight wire with gain" preamp has much to offer in the current audio scene and especially the AV environment, if it ever did.

Speakers are now, except for the very high priced exotics, narrow front format and footprint, with much smaller drivers, than years gone by. That means that the drivers, will be bass limited if not in reach then in power handling because of excursion limits of the drivers. However still very few audio preamps have proper bass management which is ridiculous. The same goes for their ability to stream and or decode modern digital media. This issue is really important. It is nonsense that old analog media has better sound quality then modern digital media. It does not, and by a long shot.

This all comes down to the whole purpose of audio and AV in the home. In my view the whole point is to enjoy to the fullest possible extent the wonderful and unprecedented array of what is on offer around the globe whether over the Net or hard copy. I have been at this for over 60 years now, and I have to pinch myself everyday to make sure I'm not imagining all the fabulous high quality choices out there for the asking, and so easily obtained with the right equipment. So if you look at this way, a preamp with just a volume control and source selector costing thousands of dollars is a really dumb purchase. Yes, they are out there and rich fools buy them!

Phono is a different matter. Quite honestly, I think unless you have a legacy record collection or want to become a collector of vintage material, I personally can't see the point of getting involved with it. I know I will get a lot of disagreement here, but that is what I believe. Obviously because of my age, I have a large legacy collection of LPs. Now getting good LP playback is difficult and you really do have to know what you are doing. I'm certain people new to this do not get optimal playback. Setting up has to be obsessional. Even then there are a lot of ills LPs are prone to. So I use good vintage preamps for my turntables and then run them to my AV prepro. I am convinced equipment from the LP hey day is the beat approach. In my preamps I can change the front end from MM to MC by changing dedicated modules. I can optimize the loading of the cartridges in teems of sensitivity and capacitance. Above all they have ideal and controllable filtering for dealing with the HF distortion a lot of LPs are prone to.

It is these type of issues that allow preamps to improve sound quality, not the nth degree of a distortion measurement.

As far as power amps go then there is a difference I believe. I do believe that if you can afford a good powerful power amp it pays dividends. These days you have bewildering choice in options and topology of the design.

Lastly I think you have to ponder the wisdom of setting up an audio only system any more.

After all for most years of my life I have been confined by the limits of technology to have had audio only systems. I have to say the ability to marry audio and video seamlessly is an unmitigated pleasure. Now I know that there are many who say you should set up an AV system and an audio only system. To me this is just wrong advice. having video in no way detracts from audio performance, in fact the reverse is true. So you might as well put your hard earned dollars to work in a good AV system.

This makes sense. I have pointed out that most audio only devices, are not, and have not been for some time built for the prevailing conditions as they now exist. They lack the ability to optimize the performance of modern loudspeaker systems, and make it difficult for the user to enjoy to the fullest the wonderful and bewildering choices out there.

So starting to build a system in this day and age your electronics options are pretty much a receiver with pre outs that you can use with external amplification if you so choose, or a pre/pro with good and flexible decoding options (and often more) and good bass management.

This probably is not the answer you were looking for. However enjoyment of music and media in the home is not just about burnished knobs and front panels, and bragging rights about the last nth distortion spec with an exotic Russian tubes, but about easily capturing and optimizing playback from the myriad of options out there.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Does it matter if the amp and pre amp are from the same company or they can they be complete different?

I have a ROTEL AMP but thinking of getting a new PRE AMP
The whole idea of components is to mix/match to your taste/needs. Different brands are fine. What do you expect to gain from a new pre-amp? Might be helpful if you are more specific with make/model of gear. Overall audio quality is more dictated by your speakers and room....
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If the Preamp/Amp are in Direct/Bypass Mode (no EQ, no Tones, no DSP), then Neither the Preamp nor the Amp will CHANGE the sound.

If the Preamp/Amp use EQ, Tones, or DSP, then they can change the sound.

For example, Room Correction can change the sound. Audyssey Dynamic EQ can change the dynamics of the bass.

I personally love Dynamic EQ on my Denon preamp.

My ATI amps (and most amps) have no EQ, Tones, or DSP. So, of course, my amps won't do anything to change the sound at all.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Does it matter if the amp and pre amp are from the same company or they can they be complete different?

I have a ROTEL AMP but thinking of getting a new PRE AMP
They don't have to match at all.

For example, I use a Denon pre-pro & ATI amps. My reason is because the Denon amp weighs about 130 LBS (way too heavy for me) and ATI does not make a updated Pre-pro (no HDMI, no DTS-HD, etc.).

But if ATI had made a pre-pro like the Denon AVP-A1HDCI or Marantz pre-pro, I would have gotten an ATI pre-pro because I like to match brands if possible for aesthetics.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Have your speakers arrived yet? While I do love they look of the McIntosh products (and Ive owned the C26, C28, and 2 MC2255s and a MA7100), Id prefer something with on board EQ processing (ie a AVR or HT preamp). The Mac's tone controls are nice, but if your room is less than perfect and you need to apply EQ to help with smoothing they dont cut it. Its a "pretty" and "expensive" preamp and dac. If your buying for the prestige and can afford it go for it as you can afford to add the EQ components as well. Dr. Marks comments above are spot on.


Edit: The next two models above the c47 have 8 band eq available for hefty price jumps. For a fraction you can get this
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marav7702mkii/marantz-av7702mkii-11.2-channel-networking-a/v-preamp/processor-w/atmos/bt/wifi/1.html
 
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S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
I really enjoyed reading the TLS Guy post. My preamp is over 16 years old and although it's only a 5.1 and has no HDMI it still satisfies. I've been able to keep it viable by adding Airport Express and I'll be getting an OPPO 105 soon to enjoy multi-channel SACD. Interestingly, my preamp, a Sony TA-E9000ES, was the last preamp offered by Sony. I've been hopeful I'd see a Sony update of this preamp; but, I'm not betting on it. Thing is, as TLS Guy alluded, what you want in a preamp today is something like what Marantz is producing. Although there are other pre/pros out there today the cost is just insane. There's no way I'd buy one, I'm not that stupid even though I may look it.
 
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ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
TLS:

SLOW CLAP...

OP:

Neither matter all that much with current technology out there, so long as you've got both if you want to do stereo audio separates. I mean, don't get me wrong, cheap crap is out there, but don't fall for high price exotic audio jewelry. With both amps and pre-amps you get diminishing returns very quickly. That said, if you ask if there can be a difference in sound with different brands, yes, but it will certainly be very subtle. There's no super technology that will allow one to be better that they all haven't figured out yet. There's no secret sauce, one maker will simply decide on making their unit with a particular coloration, or no coloration at all. Even still this is highly subjective, and very very subtle.

Hope this helps...
 
T

trEs2b

Junior Audioholic
Have your speakers arrived yet? While I do love they look of the McIntosh products (and Ive owned the C26, C28, and 2 MC2255s and a MA7100), Id prefer something with on board EQ processing (ie a AVR or HT preamp). The Mac's tone controls are nice, but if your room is less than perfect and you need to apply EQ to help with smoothing they dont cut it. Its a "pretty" and "expensive" preamp and dac. If your buying for the prestige and can afford it go for it as you can afford to add the EQ components as well. Dr. Marks comments above are spot on.


Edit: The next two models above the c47 have 8 band eq available for hefty price jumps. For a fraction you can get this
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marav7702mkii/marantz-av7702mkii-11.2-channel-networking-a/v-preamp/processor-w/atmos/bt/wifi/1.html
thanks; i'll prolly end up getting something less expensive then = ]

Haven't got speakers yet...I almost bought the 804D3
 
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T

trEs2b

Junior Audioholic
Have your speakers arrived yet? While I do love they look of the McIntosh products (and Ive owned the C26, C28, and 2 MC2255s and a MA7100), Id prefer something with on board EQ processing (ie a AVR or HT preamp). The Mac's tone controls are nice, but if your room is less than perfect and you need to apply EQ to help with smoothing they dont cut it. Its a "pretty" and "expensive" preamp and dac. If your buying for the prestige and can afford it go for it as you can afford to add the EQ components as well. Dr. Marks comments above are spot on.


Edit: The next two models above the c47 have 8 band eq available for hefty price jumps. For a fraction you can get this
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marav7702mkii/marantz-av7702mkii-11.2-channel-networking-a/v-preamp/processor-w/atmos/bt/wifi/1.html
What do you think about the mac's integrated?
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
What do you think about the mac's integrated?
Same holds true with the integrated units. The 80/20- 70/30 rule should apply to most audio related purchases, with the larger going towards speakers as they have the most impact on performance. Example 10k budget: approx 8k on speakers 2k on amplification/preamp. This ratio isnt set in stone by any means but if your looking at the 804dx with a retail of 9k, spending 7k on a preamp is not money well spent IMHO.
 
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T

trEs2b

Junior Audioholic
thanx for that, makes sense.

im kinda of getting sucked into to the audiophile like good amps, cables, etc. ( heck was even thinking of getting an audio quest power cord )

I guess I wouldn't mind getting a real GOOD amp/pre amp because I would most likely keep that for many years but i could see myself buying and selling speakers every 1-3 years.
 
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H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Can a preamp improve sound quality?
What improves sound quality more pre amp or amp?

trEs2b,
What everybody is telling you is that neither can improve sound quality. The sound quality is determined by your source, (CD, Pandora, FM, etc). No component in your system can improve it... they can only diminish or alter it.

Now some alterations may be pleasurable to the listener, like Audyssey Dynamic EQ. But that is a subjective, not an actual improvement. So your question is really, "Does a preamp or amp diminish the sound quality more?". The answer is, "Whichever is the weak link in your chain".
 
T

trEs2b

Junior Audioholic
So basically i should just get an amp with enough power for my speakers recommended power?
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
The one thing that I didnt like about Mcintosh was replacing the glass face plates more often then some would think :D
 
ATLAudio

ATLAudio

Senior Audioholic
Always treat your room first. If you can't correct it with pennies to the dollar on the thousands you'll spend on Mac gear (which I have to say is gorgeous, but very over priced- my avatar is there because I think it looks really cool) then your room has structural issues which no amount of EQ will fix.

So, $1,500 AVR (which also has all the EQ you can toss at it, plus RC) then you have $4,500 to spend on room treatments, which you shouldn't have to spend a fraction on.

While its absolutely certain speakers are the weakest link in the direct audio chain, room treatment comes first to a serious 'audioholic.' :) That said, coming up with silly fractions to justify buying exotic components for your audio chain is arbitrary at best. I've heard $10-20k speakers hooked up to the same $1500 AVR and maybe a $1000 amp bring everything out of the speakers possible. That's half the cost of the cheapest Mac gear, and does far more. The exotic separates do nothing special. Again there's no secret sauce that the old ladies in New York use when making McIntosh gear. Buy it because it looks nice, like a Rolex or Tag for your audio room. Honestly, I hope I am one day...
 

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