Audessey set crossover to 200hz. Time to manually calibrate?

[sunPin]

Ran Audessey MultEQ on a Denon AV790, which set my LR crossover to 200hz, and C to 120hz.

But that seems way too high, so I changed the global crossover (except for LFE, which I left at 120hz) to reference 80hz.

That seemed to sharpen the image, and I'm thinking that's because a lot of pseudo-directional information is no longer coming from my sub (please correct me on that if I'm wrong).

However, I can't help but wonder if there is now a dip in my response between 80hz and 200hz now that I overrode Audessey's crossover decision (Audessey is set to Flat). That shouldn't be the case, right? Audessey shouldn't EQ'ing anything

Do I need to break out the SPL meter and start plotting curves (which is very difficult to do because I have young kids running around making noise all the time), or should I not have a response curve problem as the result of manually changing the crossover?

Would love to know whether I'm worrying about something worth worrying about or not.

ALSO: My C is an MTM, whereas my LR are MT. Should LCR be crossed over at the same point (80hz), or should I crossover the C at a higher frequency (120hz?) in order to attenuate its mid-range response in order to make it match my LR better?

My system is a matched 5.1 satellite system.

Thanks.

 

[lovinthehd]

You have an unfiltered response to where you lowered the crossover (it's fine if you raise it with Audyssey, but lowering it leaves a "hole"). What are your speakers specifically? How are they placed? The crossover suggested is partially based on your speakers' f3 response. Did you use all mic positions for Audyssey?

PS As to difference between Audyssey Flat and Audyssey is Audyssey Flat is eq'd to a flat response, the Audyssey (movie) mode has eq with a slightly turned down high frquency response.

 

[sunPin]

You have an unfiltered response to where you lowered the crossover (it's fine if you raise it with Audyssey, but lowering it leaves a "hole"). What are your speakers specifically? How are they placed? The crossover suggested is partially based on your speakers' f3 response. Did you use all mic positions for Audyssey?

PS As to difference between Audyssey Flat and Audyssey is Audyssey Flat is eq'd to a flat response, the Audyssey (movie) mode has eq with a slightly turned down high frquency response.

@lovinthehd I was afraid that there would be a hole... When you say an "unfiltered response to where you lowered the crossover" do you mean that the frequency range between where Audessey set the crossover and where I set it is now un-eq'd?

L, R, SR, LR are DefTech ProCinima 1000, C is DefTech ProCinema 2000. Sub is DefTech Supercube III 8".

LR placed just to the left and right of the screen (60" plasma). C placed on the media stand level with the plasma's stand (so it's in front of it, which is something I'll address in the future). LR are ~6' apart. C is 8' from the listening position. Sub is between L and the media stand. The room is about 1,400 cu ft. The room is treated with absorption at the first reflections off the side walls and absorption behind the listening position.

I used only 3 mic positions because we only use three seating positions.

Ah, I gotcha with the Audessey eq attenuating the highs; it did sound smothered, which I don't like.

Appreciate the help!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

DefTech ProCinima 1000 should have x-over at 120-150hz and 80-100hz on center
Perhaps you measured incorrectly
Download and read word doc from here:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/795421-official-audyssey-thread-faq-post-51779-a-191.html#post14456895

 

[lovinthehd]

Try this from the Audyssey site (and the avs threads are quite good, too) https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/438840-Changing-the-cross-over-settings-after-running-Audyssey

I'd maximize mic positions for one thing, and not use actual seat locations either, start with your primary listening position, then use all the other positions within about a 2 ft radius around your primary listening position. I get my best results this way. I use a mic boom stand to position my mic, what are you doing?

I see from the specs DT claims a lower frequency response of 47Hz and recommends an 80 crossover for the PM1000s. It may be the the combo of room/placement that is causing the avr to read a higher f3 (altho I very much doubt DT's spec of 47 is a -3dB spec). Are your speakers actually on stands, wall-mounted or on the tv stand?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

as a rule of thumb - Don't trust DT's so called specs.

 

[KEW]

DT speakers have decent sound quality by most accounts, but they are notorious for fudging their specifications.

 

[TLS Guy]

DT speakers have decent sound quality by most accounts, but they are notorious for fudging their specifications.

They appear not to know the first thing about bass tuning and how ported and ABR enclosures work.

Take a look at this from Home theater review.

"The ProMonitor 1000 has a 1" pure-aluminum dome tweeter, and below it a 5.25" BDSS driver. Set into the top panel is a 5.25" pressure-coupled passive radiator. According to DefTech, the radiator moves out when the BDSS driver moves in, effectively doubling the radiating area and resulting in better bass response. DefTech claims the ProMonitor goes down to 42Hz, unusually low for an enclosure that measures only 10.9"H x 6.25"W x 6.5"D, though they don’t specify how many dB down the speaker’s output is at 42Hz."

That is not what should happen at all, and would result is bass cancellation and very poor output.

The whole point of designing a tuned system is that there IS phase inversion, such that the phase from the rear of the cone is inverted at tuning.

In a ported enclosure the port output should be IN PHASE with the front of the woofer cone.
Likewise an ABR should be in phase with with the front of the woofer cone, and ABSOLUTELY NOT move in the opposite direction!

One thing I do know is that Audyssey is really good at setting the correct crossover point.

If what Def Tech says about those speakers is correct I would expect rapidly falling output below 200 HZ, and falling at 36 db per octave to boot.

The shear quantity of incompetently designed junk out there just astounds me.[/Quote][/Quote]

 

[sunPin]

DefTech ProCinima 1000 should have x-over at 120-150hz and 80-100hz on center
Perhaps you measured incorrectly
Download and read word doc from here:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/795421-official-audyssey-thread-faq-post-51779-a-191.html#post14456895

Thanks for those links. I read the Setup Guide, which was very informative. Where did you get the crossover recommendations for the ProCinemas?

 

[sunPin]

They appear not to know the first thing about bass tuning and how ported and ABR enclosures work.

Take a look at this from Home theater review.

"The ProMonitor 1000 has a 1" pure-aluminum dome tweeter, and below it a 5.25" BDSS driver. Set into the top panel is a 5.25" pressure-coupled passive radiator. According to DefTech, the radiator moves out when the BDSS driver moves in, effectively doubling the radiating area and resulting in better bass response. DefTech claims the ProMonitor goes down to 42Hz, unusually low for an enclosure that measures only 10.9"H x 6.25"W x 6.5"D, though they don’t specify how many dB down the speaker’s output is at 42Hz."

That is not what should happen at all, and would result is bass cancellation and very poor output.

The whole point of designing a tuned system is that there IS phase inversion, such that the phase from the rear of the cone is inverted at tuning.

In a ported enclosure the port output should be IN PHASE with the front of the woofer cone.
Likewise an ABR should be in phase with with the front of the woofer cone, and ABSOLUTELY NOT move in the opposite direction!

One thing I do know is that Audyssey is really good at setting the correct crossover point.

If what Def Tech says about those speakers is correct I would expect rapidly falling output below 200 HZ, and falling at 36 db per octave to boot.

The shear quantity of incompetently designed junk out there just astounds me.

[/Quote][/QUOTE]

@tlsguy The radiator is at the top of the cabinet so there shouldn't be any cancellation even if the phase is inverted. Nevertheless, I'm still surprised that Audessey is detecting F3 at 200hz.

 

[sunPin]

Try this from the Audyssey site (and the avs threads are quite good, too) https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/438840-Changing-the-cross-over-settings-after-running-Audyssey

I'd maximize mic positions for one thing, and not use actual seat locations either, start with your primary listening position, then use all the other positions within about a 2 ft radius around your primary listening position. I get my best results this way. I use a mic boom stand to position my mic, what are you doing?

I see from the specs DT claims a lower frequency response of 47Hz and recommends an 80 crossover for the PM1000s. It may be the the combo of room/placement that is causing the avr to read a higher f3 (altho I very much doubt DT's spec of 47 is a -3dB spec). Are your speakers actually on stands, wall-mounted or on the tv stand?

@lovinthehd Thanks, that was quite interesting.

I use a mic on a tripod.

LR are on speaker stands, C is on the TV stand in front of the plasma.

 

[TLS Guy]

[/QUOTE]

@tlsguy The radiator is at the top of the cabinet so there shouldn't be any cancellation even if the phase is inverted. Nevertheless, I'm still surprised that Audessey is detecting F3 at 200hz.[/QUOTE]

It most certainly will cause cancellation. The spacing is less than a wavelength at the frequencies involved. The woofer going out and the ABR going in will cause massive cancellation at that spacing.

That is the reason that Audyssey put the crossover where it did.

 

[sunPin]

@tlsguy The radiator is at the top of the cabinet so there shouldn't be any cancellation even if the phase is inverted. Nevertheless, I'm still surprised that Audessey is detecting F3 at 200hz.[/QUOTE]

It most certainly will cause cancellation. The spacing is less than a wavelength at the frequencies involved. The woofer going out and the ABR going in will cause massive cancellation at that spacing.

That is the reason that Audyssey put the crossover where it did.[/QUOTE]

Ah I see, that makes sense. Thanks

 

[lsiberian]

In my experience Audyssey sets crossover too low more often than too high. I suspect your speakers aren't all they are advertised to be. Unfortunately embellishing specs in audio is par for the course. Why in the world do we have a P-R in a speaker? You could simply put another driver in for the same cost and get better results.

 

[TLS Guy]

In my experience Audyssey sets crossover too low more often than too high. I suspect your speakers aren't all they are advertised to be. Unfortunately embellishing specs in audio is par for the course. Why in the world do we have a P-R in a speaker? You could simply put another driver in for the same cost and get better results.

Well, not really. I know that you realize adding a driver will not lower F3, just increase sensitivity and power handling. But assuming the designers knew what they were doing, which in this case is questionable, then the Vas is doubled, so the enclosure size would double.

Now as you know whether you tune an enclosure with a port or ABR makes little difference to the end result as long as the designs are competent. The ABR will have a slightly steeper roll off than the ported one.

Now if the ABR design is competent at tuning, when the woofer moves forward the ABR will also. This way the bass output is enhanced and extended. Below tuning the speaker will decouple from the resonant system, and the driver and ABR move out of phase. At this point bass output rapidly falls off and cone excursion of the driver becomes excessive and useless. With an enclosure that size, with a properly selected driver properly tuned with an ABR, an F3 around 80 Hz or so should have been possible.

Now a sealed enclosure using a 5 1/4" driver is going to have a pretty high F3, although falling off at 12 db per octave.

So it made sense to go a for a resonant tuned alignment. However I bet they found that they had screed up after they had a Far Eastern factory make thousands of the things. When they did find they had a miss tuned speaker, and the ABR did indeed move out when the woofer moved in, then marketing people said: - "Make it a selling point!"

 

[sunPin]

So, set crossover back to where Audessey suggested, or manually calibrate?




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[BlwnAway]

So, set crossover back to where Audessey suggested, or manually calibrate?




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Unfortunately yes, personally I'd save the Audyssey settings and then start manually tweaking. I know those speakers, and if they are the ProMonitor 1000's and ProCenter 2000 then they really shouldn't need to be that high, unless there's some weird room condition going on. In the proper conditions, those speakers should really be around 80hz, there capable of some pretty full sound for their size.

Good Luck.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Audyssey...set my...crossover to 200hz...

...so I changed the...crossover...to... 80hz.

Hmm, that's funny. Because Audyssey set the crossover to 40Hz. But then I changed the crossover to 200Hz.

 

[sunPin]

According to Sound & Vision's freq response test of the ProCinema 1000 (purple) and 2000 (green), it looks like Audessey was right to set the crossover at 200hz for the 1000 and 150hz for the 2000.

Does that crossover look right to guys?

If so, that's a bit dismaying.

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[lovinthehd]

According to Sound & Vision's freq response test of the ProCinema 1000 (purple) and 2000 (green), it looks like Audessey was right to set the crossover at 200hz for the 1000 and 150hz for the 2000.

Does that crossover look right to guys?

If so, that's a bit dismaying.

What's blue? Why do you think 200 looks to be a good xover on this chart? Problem with such a high crossover is can the sub handle that high a frequency response, plus localization issues that may arise.