Audessey set crossover to 200hz. Time to manually calibrate?

[TLS Guy]

What's blue? Why do you think 200 looks to be a good xover on this chart? Problem with such a high crossover is can the sub handle that high a frequency response, plus localization issues that may arise.

Audyssey correctly identified the 3 db point of those speakers.

By that graph, those are lousy speakers, well into the junk category.

To have a 5 1/4" driver in a box that size, and end up with a F3 of 200 Hz indicates the DefTech engineers need to go back to school, if they ever went.

There is an awful lot of junk out there and buyers need to be aware.

 

[sunPin]

Audyssey correctly identified the 3 db point of those speakers.

By that graph, those are lousy speakers, well into the junk category.

To have a 5 1/4" driver in a box that size, and end up with a F3 of 200 Hz indicates the DefTech engineers need to go back to school, if they ever went.

There is an awful lot of junk out there and buyers need to be aware.

Sigh. That's what I was afraid of. It's such a shame, too, because their Mythos system was rated very highly and I've been very happy with their Supercube III up to now (though I've outgrown it now).

Time to upgrade!

 

[lovinthehd]

Audyssey correctly identified the 3 db point of those speakers.

By that graph, those are lousy speakers, well into the junk category.

To have a 5 1/4" driver in a box that size, and end up with a F3 of 200 Hz indicates the DefTech engineers need to go back to school, if they ever went.

There is an awful lot of junk out there and buyers need to be aware.

So explain what the blue is and why the xover point is correct please.

 

[sunPin]

So explain what the blue is and why the xover point is correct please.

The blue is a subwoofer from their test of a system, but I don't have that same sub.

The xover is correct because Audessey looks for the frequency at which the speaker experiences a 3db falloff (known as F3, which I have learned from this thread), and according to this independent test, the ProCinema 1000 drop off at 200hz and the ProCinemas 2000 drop off at 150hz.

 

[lovinthehd]

The blue is a subwoofer from their test of a system, but I don't have that same sub.

The xover is correct because Audessey looks for the frequency at which the speaker experiences a 3db falloff (known as F3, which I have learned from this thread), and according to this independent test, the ProCinema 1000 drop off at 200hz and the ProCinemas 2000 drop off at 150hz.

Thanks, was wondering if it was your sub model or not. Still, the speaker has useful response below 200, f3 or no. Depending on sub you might want to try something else accordingly....what is the upper frequency response of your sub?

 

[sunPin]

Audyssey correctly identified the 3 db point of those speakers.

By that graph, those are lousy speakers, well into the junk category.

To have a 5 1/4" driver in a box that size, and end up with a F3 of 200 Hz indicates the DefTech engineers need to go back to school, if they ever went.

There is an awful lot of junk out there and buyers need to be aware.

What confuses me is that Sound & Vision rated them very highly.

"Performance: 94
• Smooth, supple midrange and painless highs
• Giant soundstage
• Sub has strong upper bass"

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/definitive-technology-procinema-1000-speaker-system-and-pioneer-elite-vsx-84txsi-av-receive-0

If these speakers are so bad, are S&V just blowing smoke?

I thought the speakers were decent at the time, but now I've learned a lot more about what to expect.

 

[everettT]

What confuses me is that Sound & Vision rated them very highly.

"Performance: 94
• Smooth, supple midrange and painless highs
• Giant soundstage
• Sub has strong upper bass"

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/definitive-technology-procinema-1000-speaker-system-and-pioneer-elite-vsx-84txsi-av-receive-0

If these speakers are so bad, are S&V just blowing smoke?

I thought the speakers were decent at the time, but now I've learned a lot more about what to expect.

Impressions are subjective, measurements are objective.

 

[Dan Madden]

Ok........I'm old school and I don't like any auto calibration technology and the cheap mics they use to adjust the frequencies of your system!! Audio is not that complex, but I understand some mom and pops don't want to read the manuals or take the time or understand how a HT system works. I DO NOT like the way auto-calibration systems set LF settings so high or randomly decide some speakers should be set to large and some to small. Sheesh !! Here is my simplified method.

If you HAVE A SUB or subs......these speakers are designed for low bass reproduction only. NO SPEAKER in a system with a sub should be set to large via your AVR or have the sub set to a 200hz crossover! (WHAT??!!) Set ALL your speakers to small and send all LF audio information to the sub or subs. Start with a 80Hz crossover (Benchmark) and experiment from there. Any decent speaker should be able to play down to 80hz (Unless it's a tiny satellite speaker). Next, set each speaker distance from each speaker to the main listening position. Sorry, but this is non-negotiable and anything less is a compromise. After that, using an SPL meter (Android has great apps for this), using the pink noise speaker level adjustments that all AVR's have, set (Adjust) all the speaker output levels so that they are all the same. Play the pink noise at the same volume level on the dial you will normally listen to music or movies for best results.

Everything else that can or could do make your system sound better will come down to speaker and sub placement within the room. Speaker placement makes a HUGE difference in how they will perform. Avoid placing ANY speaker near the back or side walls. Universally, the farther from walls all speakers are, the better they will perform. Experimentation after this simple setup advice is highly recommended. That's the fun of it right!!?? I've moved my speakers a few inches here and there and have gotten major results! Have fun !

 

[VonMagnum]

Hmm, that's funny. Because Audyssey set the crossover to 40Hz. But then I changed the crossover to 200Hz.

I ran into this thread somehow and the "junk" comments someone made bothered me looking at the graphs....

It sounds to me like Audyssey was correct in your room at the time (the room can affect the results quite a bit; I've had 55Hz speakers register as 40Hz before because of a room bump).

I drew a relative midpoint in red. The Pro Monitor (or was it Cinema) 1000 zero point is right around 87dB on the scale and the ProMonitor 2000 around 77dB. That makes the -3dB point 84 and 74 respectively or right around 45-50Hz in both cases (I think the 1000 is rated for 47Hz). The speakers in question are more or less +/- 3dB (1000) and +4/-3dB for the 2000 graph from 80-18kHz as well (+/- 3dB is typical even on many higher-end speakers). Not the best (fairly common response for a slightly above average bookshelf), but hardly looks to me like the "junk" speakers someone here proclaimed and easily corrected by Audyssey or Dirac at a typical 80Hz crossover point. I think Sound and Vision uses close-mic measurements, which aren't quite as accurate as an anechoic chamber, but should give a close approximation.

Moreover, the point where it starts dropping 24dB/octave is right around/near 45Hz down to 22.5Hz, plain as day, just as specced (I believe ProMonitor 1000 is rated 47Hz).

If you want more innate accuracy, go PSB. They rate to +/- 1dB over most of the frequency range. That's the brand I chose.

 

[Danzilla31]

Ok........I'm old school and I don't like any auto calibration technology and the cheap mics they use to adjust the frequencies of your system!! Audio is not that complex, but I understand some mom and pops don't want to read the manuals or take the time or understand how a HT system works. I DO NOT like the way auto-calibration systems set LF settings so high or randomly decide some speakers should be set to large and some to small. Sheesh !! Here is my simplified method.

If you HAVE A SUB or subs......these speakers are designed for low bass reproduction only. NO SPEAKER in a system with a sub should be set to large via your AVR or have the sub set to a 200hz crossover! (WHAT??!!) Set ALL your speakers to small and send all LF audio information to the sub or subs. Start with a 80Hz crossover (Benchmark) and experiment from there. Any decent speaker should be able to play down to 80hz (Unless it's a tiny satellite speaker). Next, set each speaker distance from each speaker to the main listening position. Sorry, but this is non-negotiable and anything less is a compromise. After that, using an SPL meter (Android has great apps for this), using the pink noise speaker level adjustments that all AVR's have, set (Adjust) all the speaker output levels so that they are all the same. Play the pink noise at the same volume level on the dial you will normally listen to music or movies for best results.

Everything else that can or could do make your system sound better will come down to speaker and sub placement within the room. Speaker placement makes a HUGE difference in how they will perform. Avoid placing ANY speaker near the back or side walls. Universally, the farther from walls all speakers are, the better they will perform. Experimentation after this simple setup advice is highly recommended. That's the fun of it right!!?? I've moved my speakers a few inches here and there and have gotten major results! Have fun !

The last couple years trying out all the room correction stuff I ended up coming back to the advice you posted here.
This is the way I like to do it the best. Can't speak for anyone else but it works for my ears

 

[TLS Guy]

I ran into this thread somehow and the "junk" comments someone made bothered me looking at the graphs....

It sounds to me like Audyssey was correct in your room at the time (the room can affect the results quite a bit; I've had 55Hz speakers register as 40Hz before because of a room bump).

I drew a relative midpoint in red. The Pro Monitor (or was it Cinema) 1000 zero point is right around 87dB on the scale and the ProMonitor 2000 around 77dB. That makes the -3dB point 84 and 74 respectively or right around 45-50Hz in both cases (I think the 1000 is rated for 47Hz). The speakers in question are more or less +/- 3dB (1000) and +4/-3dB for the 2000 graph from 80-18kHz as well (+/- 3dB is typical even on many higher-end speakers). Not the best (fairly common response for a slightly above average bookshelf), but hardly looks to me like the "junk" speakers someone here proclaimed and easily corrected by Audyssey or Dirac at a typical 80Hz crossover point. I think Sound and Vision uses close-mic measurements, which aren't quite as accurate as an anechoic chamber, but should give a close approximation.

Moreover, the point where it starts dropping 24dB/octave is right around/near 45Hz down to 22.5Hz, plain as day, just as specced (I believe ProMonitor 1000 is rated 47Hz).

View attachment 29394

If you want more innate accuracy, go PSB. They rate to +/- 1dB over most of the frequency range. That's the brand I chose.

The reference band for the 3 db point is to octave 500 Hz to 1000 Hz range.

These speakers have a "smiley" in the 1.5 to 4 KHz range, which would help disguise the high mid band output. The response is starting to fall at the 700 to 600 Hz range. This is typical of a speaker with no or inadequate baffle step compensation. The response relative to the crucial point of the mid band response is 3 db down by 150 Hz.

This would not be a pleasing speaker. Speakers with that type of curve really lack "body".

In my investigation of Audyssey which I have published on this forum, Audyssey will set a high crossover point unless BSC is slightly excessive.

My speakers have infinitively variable BSC. When BSC is optimal by measurement and listening, Audyssey is inclined to set an inappropriately high crossover point. From my research BSC had to be slightly excessive for Audyssey to set the crossover pint correctly. So with the graph above I would expect Audyssey to set the crossover point on the 200 Hz region.

Here is the result of how BSC had to be set not to cross my center speaker at 200 Hz.

When BSC was set at the correct level as indicated in this measurement, it set the crossover to 200.

Actually the optimal setting is with this speaker set to large.