Settings for commercial theater speakers

[Maverick1776]

Hey guys, I'm somewhat new to setting up audio equipment. Looking to get the best sound from what I have, but some of the things I found online are confusing for speaker settings.

The equipment I have is an Onkyo TX-NR709 setup for 7.1
An Onkyo M-501 amplifier, and Onkyo P-301 pre-amp for subwoofer level.
The front speakers were pulled from an old theater that closed down a while back.
(3) Altec Lansing horns, and 12" woofers. Each woofer and horn are connected with a 2 way crossover.

I ran the audyssey setup, and it chose 40hz for my left/right speakers, and 50hz for center.
I guess the confusing part is, I'm not sure if I should be setting the speakers to full band or not. Because these are large.
For the surround, I just have some decent polk audio bookshelf style speakers. Audyssey chose 50hz for sides, and 60hz for the back.

The other question I have to LPF of LFE, should it be 120hz, and subwoofer phase to 180 ?

Any help for this would be great.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

If you’re using a subwoofer, the mains speakers should be set for “small” no matter how large they are. Otherwise you have the mains duplicating part of the subwoofer range, and that can cause messed-up bass response.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[lovinthehd]

How do you use a separate pre-amp for the sub aside from the avr?

Small and large should just read bass management on and off. Using a sub Audyssey always recommends small, your avr manufacturer not so much. I'd start with phase at 0 then flip it to 180 (if you have just those two choices rather than a variable selection) to see which gives you the better bass response then leave it there. I leave LPF of LFE at 120 since that's the normal content limit in the LFE channel.

ps rereading....is it a passive sub running off both the onkyo preamp as well as outboard amp?

 

[TLS Guy]

If you’re using a subwoofer, the mains speakers should be set for “small” no matter how large they are. Otherwise you have the mains duplicating part of the subwoofer range, and that can cause messed-up bass response.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

That is the North American view. The view from Europe is that if the main speakers are bass capable, they should just be supplemented by a sub, if they need it, and NOT crossed over.

When setting up speakers such as a B & W 800 series speaker for instance I always only supplement.

In fact you get a much better and more even bass response this way.

I am firmly of the view that you only set speakers to small, if they are incapable which unfortunately is far too many.

I have all my speakers set to large, in all my systems, that includes center, surrounds and backs. It gives by far the best and most even bass response.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey guys, I'm somewhat new to setting up audio equipment. Looking to get the best sound from what I have, but some of the things I found online are confusing for speaker settings.

The equipment I have is an Onkyo TX-NR709 setup for 7.1
An Onkyo M-501 amplifier, and Onkyo P-301 pre-amp for subwoofer level.
The front speakers were pulled from an old theater that closed down a while back.
(3) Altec Lansing horns, and 12" woofers. Each woofer and horn are connected with a 2 way crossover.

I ran the audyssey setup, and it chose 40hz for my left/right speakers, and 50hz for center.
I guess the confusing part is, I'm not sure if I should be setting the speakers to full band or not. Because these are large.
For the surround, I just have some decent polk audio bookshelf style speakers. Audyssey chose 50hz for sides, and 60hz for the back.

The other question I have to LPF of LFE, should it be 120hz, and subwoofer phase to 180 ?

Any help for this would be great.

So you are using vintage Altec Voice of the theater components.

In a home it will be had to get far enough away from them. They were designed for large spaces..

The horns are pretty fierce by modern standards.

The passive crossovers are pretty poor. In the best cinemas they were always biamped.

Shure made an electronic crossover that suited them well. It is the Shure SR 106.

You can select crossover points of 500 Hz, 800 Hz or 2600 HZ. for the voice of the theater range the 800 Hz setting works best. The low pass is first order and the high pass second order.

You will need one for each channel, and two power amps for each speaker. If the amps do not have level controls you will need to add them, between at least the crossover high pass and the HF power amp.

This set up totally transforms the Voice of the Theater systems.

These systems were built for high sensitivity as the amps were tube and not high powered by modern standards. This means that the bass turnover point was around 60 Hz.

So I would leave the speakers set to large and add the sub starting around 80 Hz. You can also try 60 Hz and see which sounds the best.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

How do you use a separate pre-amp for the sub aside from the avr?
ps rereading....is it a passive sub running off both the onkyo preamp as well as outboard amp?

He’s using the pre-amp between the AVR and sub as a means to remote-control the sub’s level. It could be used for either a standard active sub or passive sub with outboard amplifier.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

That is the North American view. The view from Europe is that if the main speakers are bass capable, they should just be supplemented by a sub, if they need it, and NOT crossed over.

That’s fine, as long as the sub is crossed to match the lower extension of the mains.

If the subs and mains overlap and you have say, mains that are good to 40 Hz and a sub that’s good to 20 Hz, you end up with a system that’s only good to 40 Hz, because you have three speakers working above 40 Hz and only one below 40 Hz. You can see a case study of that situation here, with graphs.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/26478-please-provide-your-impressions-advice-my-rew-graphs-2.html#post244289

When setting up speakers such as a B & W 800 series speaker for instance I always only supplement.

In fact you get a much better and more even bass response this way.

Starting from the point that the low frequency capabilities of all the speakers and/or subs should be the same, the potential “even bass” improvement is room dependent. Everything I’ve seen on the subject indicates that the experimentation has been done in rooms with (or generally with) shoebox dimensions. However, I’ve lived most of my adult life in houses with so-called “open” floor plans with grossly asymmetrical boundaries and cathedral ceilings, and uneven bass is not an issue. Bass sounds pretty consistent throughout the listening area for all seats except those located next to a room boundary.

Incidentally, the documentation supporting multiple subs claims best results are realized with say, two subs or four. An odd number of low-frequency generators like you’ve described – two bass-capable speakers with a single sub – is a big no-no.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[TLS Guy]

That’s fine, as long as the sub is crossed to match the lower extension of the mains.

If the subs and mains overlap and you have say, mains that are good to 40 Hz and a sub that’s good to 20 Hz, you end up with a system that’s only good to 40 Hz, because you have three speakers working above 40 Hz and only one below 40 Hz. You can see a case study of that situation here, with graphs.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/26478-please-provide-your-impressions-advice-my-rew-graphs-2.html#post244289


Starting from the point that the low frequency capabilities of all the speakers and/or subs should be the same, the potential “even bass” improvement is room dependent. Everything I’ve seen on the subject indicates that the experimentation has been done in rooms with (or generally with) shoebox dimensions. However, I’ve lived most of my adult life in houses with so-called “open” floor plans with grossly asymmetrical boundaries and cathedral ceilings, and uneven bass is not an issue. Bass sounds pretty consistent throughout the listening area for all seats except those located next to a room boundary.

Incidentally, the documentation supporting multiple subs claims best results are realized with say, two subs or four. An odd number of low-frequency generators like you’ve described – two bass-capable speakers with a single sub – is a big no-no.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

First of all I do use two subs. The next issue is that the F3 of the main speakers is seldom the correct frequency to bring in the sub. It is usually much nearer 1.5 F3 as B & W point out in their literature. That is why I suggested the OP start blending in the subs 80 Hz or so.

The late John Wight of TDL in his dual TL designs tuned the lines 1.5 octave apart. I have also found that works best. My lines are tuned 1.5 octave apart and the bass drivers both go up to 60 Hz, while the F3 of the smaller line is 45 Hz. This gives the smoothest response.

In my downstairs system the three ways have an F3 at 53 Hz, although the response is not fourth order, it is a novel alignment that does not roll off fourth order until 35 Hz. The subs are not rolled off until 75 HZ and rolled off sixth order.

The problem comes with small drivers in ported boxes, which is now the usual situation. They decouple from the box below tuning and do need crossing over below tuning to prevent excessive driver excursion.

 

[TLS Guy]

The other thing the OP should know about his Altecs. is that the horn compression drivers will be well past best now.

Great Plains Audio, run by former Altec employees, have better updated compression drivers for the horns. This update is strongly advised.

 

[Maverick1776]

The speakers were bought from a theater that closed down back in the 80's.
I was using a 35mm projector with altec Lansing tube amps to control left, right, center.
I made the jump a while back to a 1080p projector and modernized the audio.

So regardless that these are large vintage speakers with horns, powered by altec Lansing drivers. I should still set them as small 40hz fronts ?

Thanks for the replies by the way.

 

[lovinthehd]

Just depends if you want to use bass management or not, or "blend" your subs euro style. To me it might depend on your subbage....what are you running for subs?

 

[Maverick1776]

So you are using vintage Altec Voice of the theater components.

In a home it will be had to get far enough away from them. They were designed for large spaces..

The horns are pretty fierce by modern standards.

The passive crossovers are pretty poor. In the best cinemas they were always biamped.

Shure made an electronic crossover that suited them well. It is the Shure SR 106.

You can select crossover points of 500 Hz, 800 Hz or 2600 HZ. for the voice of the theater range the 800 Hz setting works best. The low pass is first order and the high pass second order.

You will need one for each channel, and two power amps for each speaker. If the amps do not have level controls you will need to add them, between at least the crossover high pass and the HF power amp.

This set up totally transforms the Voice of the Theater systems.

These systems were built for high sensitivity as the amps were tube and not high powered by modern standards. This means that the bass turnover point was around 60 Hz.

So I would leave the speakers set to large and add the sub starting around 80 Hz. You can also try 60 Hz and see which sounds the best.

Thanks, I'll have to look into that. Does this mean I'll have to run separate speaker wires to the woofer and horn?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks, I'll have to look into that. Does this mean I'll have to run separate speaker wires to the woofer and horn?

Yes, and separate amps as well.

 

[Maverick1776]

Yes, and separate amps as well.

Is there something I can do as an alternative to the active crossover?
I'm not in a position to add more equipment at this time, although I do see the benefit of adding them.
Here is the exact crossover board I have for my center,left, and right.
Any recommendation on an amplifier for my left/right ? I was thinking of adding another Onkyo M-501. Older stuff just seems to be built better. Unless I spend 1000's on something new. Thanks,

 

[TLS Guy]

Is there something I can do as an alternative to the active crossover?
I'm not in a position to add more equipment at this time, although I do see the benefit of adding them.
Here is the exact crossover board I have for my center,left, and right.
Any recommendation on an amplifier for my left/right ? I was thinking of adding another Onkyo M-501. Older stuff just seems to be built better. Unless I spend 1000's on something new. Thanks,

That does not even look like the original crossover. That is just first order top and bottom. The horn will be playing far too low and likely get damaged.

Older stuff may have a more robust looking build quality, but when it comes to speakers they are nowhere near as good as a rule.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You could do it either way. It depends on your preference. Do you want your subwoofer to handle most of the heavy bass duty and let your mains handle mainly the midrange and treble?

Even when I was using Salon2, 802 Diamond, Orion 3.21, and Philharmonic 3 towers (all play below 30Hz), I would let my Funk subwoofers handle most of the heavy bass duty - I set all the speakers to Small and Crossover at 150Hz.

 

[herbu]

Even when I was using Salon2, 802 Diamond, Orion 3.21, and Philharmonic 3 towers... I set all the speakers to Small and Crossover at 150Hz.

Really?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Really?

It does seem strange setting the XO @ 150Hz when you have Salon2. But I just didn't want to "stress" out my Salon2, 802 Diamond speakers, etc.

IMO if the sub does a fantastic job from 20Hz-250Hz, I would set the XO to 120-150Hz.

That's why people have to experiment and see for themselves.

 

[Maverick1776]

That does not even look like the original crossover. That is just first order top and bottom. The horn will be playing far too low and likely get damaged.

Older stuff may have a more robust looking build quality, but when it comes to speakers they are nowhere near as good as a rule.

The crossovers that originally came with these speakers had solder points on them. They were from altec lansing as well. They were enclosed boxes, very good build quality. I stopped using them a long time ago, and no longer have them. Here is one on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Altec-N-800-D-Crossover-16-ohms-800Hz-/231889151575?hash=item35fdaba657:g:Tj0AAOSwLpdW9DLh

Is there a crossover you can suggest ?

 

[TLS Guy]

The crossovers that originally came with these speakers had solder points on them. They were from altec lansing as well. They were enclosed boxes, very good build quality. I stopped using them a long time ago, and no longer have them. Here is one on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Altec-N-800-D-Crossover-16-ohms-800Hz-/231889151575?hash=item35fdaba657:g:Tj0AAOSwLpdW9DLh

Is there a crossover you can suggest ?

Ye, the correct ones. You can not use any old crossover. The ones you are using now will destroy the compression drivers in the horns.

You need the original Altec passive crossovers, or bi-amp with the Shure SR 106 electronic crossovers. NOTHING else will do.