JL Audio Fathom F113

[Steve81]

There is no real benefit to crossing over above 80 HZ

Reducing excursion requirements on your speakers is a very real benefit, one with very measurable and audible results. More to the point, there's no one-size-fits-all with crossovers.

If you like to set your crossover above 100 HZ, that's more of preference than a requirement.

Even the Kef's that Steve81 has in his system, including the surrounds, the F113 would integrate well with his speakers, he could set his crossover to 80Hz and he would be good to go.

In my case, I get better overall results with a 120Hz XO. Some of that is increased dynamic capability as a result of not being badly displacement limited around the XO region, and some of that is just being able to achieve smoother integration. If I had the f113, the flexibility to try these things just wouldn't be there. Would the system still work with an 80Hz XO? Of course it would, just not as well, and that's with 3-way tower fronts. Substitute my R500's for the much smaller R100's, and that difference becomes far more pronounced.

 

[Hocky]

It sounds to me like you had a faulty unit. Every company probably have a bad apple every now and then. Also, 100 hz is loud, loud enough to damage your hearing.

Call it what you want, but ultimately it was replaced twice and I had the same experience. Mechanical noise around 100db at 25hz from a $6000 subwoofer is pathetic.

 

[shadyJ]

There is no real benefit to crossing over above 80 HZ, I think THX got it right, unless you have some tiny, teeny speakers, that you find in home theater in a box type system. Most likely, for sub we discuss and purchase around here, I doubt most will be investing in speakers that require you to set the crossover above 100 HZ to get them rightly integrated with the sub. If you like to set your crossover above 100 HZ, that's more of preference than a requirement.

One (of multiple) benefit, as Steve said, is the subs typically have much greater dynamic range in the mid and upper bass bands. They can give you a lot more impact in that region than most tower speakers. It also alleviates speakers from playing in that region, and by doing so, lessens distortion, as that is where distortion will be greatest in a loudspeaker.

 

[Steve81]

I think THX got it right

Speaking of THX, one should keep in mind that they don't just specify a crossover point. THX is about a full ecosystem of complementary gear, for which their 80Hz XO has meaning. This is what THX Ultra 2 certified speakers look like:
Atlantic Tech 8200e
Atlantic Tech 6200e
Klipsch THX Ultra

and here's a THX Select rig:
Atlantic Tech 4400

As compared with a small bookshelf speaker like the aforementioned R100, even the THX Select speakers (for rooms under 2,000 cu ft) are pretty meaty.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Mechanical noise around 100db at 25hz from a $6000 subwoofer is pathetic.

To say the least.

 

[Auditor55]

Speaking of THX, one should keep in mind that they don't just specify a crossover point. THX is about a full ecosystem of complementary gear, for which their 80Hz XO has meaning. This is what THX Ultra 2 certified speakers look like:
Atlantic Tech 8200e
Atlantic Tech 6200e
Klipsch THX Ultra

and here's a THX Select rig:
Atlantic Tech 4400

As compared with a small bookshelf speaker like the aforementioned R100, even the THX Select speakers (for rooms under 2,000 cu ft) are pretty meaty.

80 HZ is also considered the crossover point where bass is no longer directional. Setting a crossover at 120 HZ might make the bass directional and some find directional bass undesirable.

 

[Auditor55]

One (of multiple) benefit, as Steve said, is the subs typically have much greater dynamic range in the mid and upper bass bands. They can give you a lot more impact in that region than most tower speakers. It also alleviates speakers from playing in that region, and by doing so, lessens distortion, as that is where distortion will be greatest in a loudspeaker.

What do you consider the mid and upper bass? I ask because some people have different definitions.

 

[Steve81]

80 HZ is also considered the crossover point where bass is no longer directional.

Not entirely true. Conveniently enough I posted a few select quotes from this paper on another thread today:

30 crossover frequency values listed in the Table 1 were used between 55 and 227 Hz

It was noticed that the listening panel could be divided into two groups. The selected crossover frequency range was not wide enough for half of the listeners, as at some cases they did not detect the difference between reference and split signal even at the highest crossover frequency value.

The results show also that with these sound samples the crossover frequency can be set to fcrossover ≈ 120 Hz before the subwoofer becomes detectable.

With proper integration and multiple subs, one can potentially cross over much higher than 120Hz without ill effects. The problem with the f113 is you can't really experiment with higher XO's to see if you can achieve better results. That's not necessarily a dealbreaker, nor does it make the f113 an inherently bad sub, but it does tend to detract from calling it "the best small sub". It's very powerful for its size, but its not perfect or ideal for every situation where a compact sub is desired.

 

[shadyJ]

What do you consider the mid and upper bass? I ask because some people have different definitions.

I am just going to throw out a few numbers without thinking about it too hard. I would say deep bass, 40 Hz and below. Mid bass; 41 Hz to 100 Hz. Upper bass, 100- 250+ Hz.

 

[morca]

Why dont you buy a 13W7 driver and a plateamp.
Build will cost you 1/3 from the org F113,and it wil play just as good.
Ik have 3 JL sub,s ,some of mu friend i help building designin.
Buy a good plateamp you will have not so much trouble.
I read more about amps break,ver bad for JL brand name.

They will learn the hard way.....

 

[Steve81]

Why dont you buy a 13W7 driver and a plateamp.

A couple thoughts:

1. Someone seriously considering the f113 probably places a lot of value on the fit and finish of the product. Very few DIY jobs can equal JL in that respect.

2. It would need to be a very good/costly plate amp to equal the one in the f113. A run of the mill 500W BASH amp from Parts Express isn't going to cut it. Something like this would potentially get you in the ballpark, but then you'd need to fiddle with things like limiters to make sure the sub doesn't destroy itself.

 

[Steve81]

It's very powerful for its size, but its not perfect or ideal for every situation where a compact sub is desired.

Just to clarify further, let's consider a real example of a compact speaker that someone might consider pairing with the f113. Take the KEF LS50's, an all round great compact speaker that offers good measured performance and has received many glowing reviews. It has about as much in common with HTIB speakers as a Lotus Elise does with a Toyota Corolla. There are two things worth noting:

1. As a compact speaker with a single 5.25" concentric driver, it's obviously not a displacement champ. IOW, output is restricted by the fact that it doesn't have enough woofer to produce big SPL down low.

2. While the LS50 is displacement limited, the voice coil of the woofer is quite large; this is a consequence of being a concentric driver, and means it can handle a great deal of power.

Now lets consider two compact subs to pair with these speakers, the f113 and the SVS SB13U. While the SB13U isn't quite as potent down low as the JL, it does offer good top end extension to 200+Hz making higher XOs feasible.

So what are the implications? With your THX standard XO of 80Hz, the LS50s simply don't have the guts to keep up with the f113. It can obviously work and sound very good doing it; however, with the SB13U in the picture, options open up. With a higher XO, suddenly the LS50s aren't as badly limited by their modest displacement, which directly translates into more available dynamic range, lower distortion at any given level, and ultimately a better balanced system with superior overall performance.

 

[shadyJ]

Just to clarify further, let's consider a real example of a compact speaker that someone might consider pairing with the f113. Take the KEF LS50's, an all round great compact speaker that offers good measured performance and has received many glowing reviews. It has about as much in common with HTIB speakers as a Lotus Elise does with a Toyota Corolla. There are two things worth noting:

1. As a compact speaker with a single 5.25" concentric driver, it's obviously not a displacement champ. IOW, output is restricted by the fact that it doesn't have enough woofer to produce big SPL down low.

2. While the LS50 is displacement limited, the voice coil of the woofer is quite large; this is a consequence of being a concentric driver, and means it can handle a great deal of power.

Now lets consider two compact subs to pair with these speakers, the f113 and the SVS SB13U. While the SB13U isn't quite as potent down low as the JL, it does offer good top end extension to 200+Hz making higher XOs feasible.

So what are the implications? With your THX standard XO of 80Hz, the LS50s simply don't have the guts to keep up with the f113. It can obviously work and sound very good doing it; however, with the SB13U in the picture, options open up. With a higher XO, suddenly the LS50s aren't as badly limited by their modest displacement, which directly translates into more available dynamic range, lower distortion at any given level, and ultimately a better balanced system with superior overall performance.

Furthermore, for the price of a F113, you can get two SB13s, which allows you to use a higher crossover without the the localization penalty. You also get a lot more displacement. You also get a much better room response, if any care is taken with sub placement. I think I would even prefer a single SB13 over a F113, for the much greater bandwidth it has, in both high and low frequencies.

 

[morca]

A couple thoughts:

1. Someone seriously considering the f113 probably places a lot of value on the fit and finish of the product. Very few DIY jobs can equal JL in that respect.

2. It would need to be a very good/costly plate amp to equal the one in the f113. A run of the mill 500W BASH amp from Parts Express isn't going to cut it. Something like this would potentially get you in the ballpark, but then you'd need to fiddle with things like limiters to make sure the sub doesn't destroy itself.

1 A good plate and a 13 W7 driver will do the job.

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-spa1200dsp-1200w-subwoofer-amplifier-with-dsp--300-8000

2 Limiters ..... i have build several JL audio subs,closed and vented.
You have to dsp them correct and learn the limit.
I never had problems whit overload on the coil or Xmax whit my build,s.

 

[Steve81]

1 A good plate and a 13 W7 driver will do the job.

There's a world of difference between "doing the job", and providing an attractive solution that I'd want in my living room. The f113 very clearly caters to individuals looking for the latter.

You have to dsp them correct and learn the limit.

Indeed, and ideally you'll learn the limit before you smoke a VC

 

[Auditor55]

Furthermore, for the price of a F113, you can get two SB13s, which allows you to use a higher crossover without the the localization penalty. You also get a lot more displacement. You also get a much better room response, if any care is taken with sub placement. I think I would even prefer a single SB13 over a F113, for the much greater bandwidth it has, in both high and low frequencies.

I have two SB13's, they don't play as loud as F113's, having said that's not that much of an issue for me, however to some, output means everything. Also, the F113's are smaller than the SB13's, I could place 3 of them in my room whereas I can't do that with SB13's, yes those extra few inches makes a difference. I like my SB13's however, I don't think they have the slam like the F113's, at least they don't in my room.

 

[Auditor55]

Just to clarify further, let's consider a real example of a compact speaker that someone might consider pairing with the f113. Take the KEF LS50's, an all round great compact speaker that offers good measured performance and has received many glowing reviews. It has about as much in common with HTIB speakers as a Lotus Elise does with a Toyota Corolla. There are two things worth noting:

1. As a compact speaker with a single 5.25" concentric driver, it's obviously not a displacement champ. IOW, output is restricted by the fact that it doesn't have enough woofer to produce big SPL down low.

2. While the LS50 is displacement limited, the voice coil of the woofer is quite large; this is a consequence of being a concentric driver, and means it can handle a great deal of power.

Now lets consider two compact subs to pair with these speakers, the f113 and the SVS SB13U. While the SB13U isn't quite as potent down low as the JL, it does offer good top end extension to 200+Hz making higher XOs feasible.

So what are the implications? With your THX standard XO of 80Hz, the LS50s simply don't have the guts to keep up with the f113. It can obviously work and sound very good doing it; however, with the SB13U in the picture, options open up. With a higher XO, suddenly the LS50s aren't as badly limited by their modest displacement, which directly translates into more available dynamic range, lower distortion at any given level, and ultimately a better balanced system with superior overall performance.

As I was saying, its a matter preference. If you own a set of KEF's LS50's, then you should take into consideration what you are saying. If I own a F113 I wouldn't purchase those speakers.

 

[Steve81]

As I was saying, its a matter preference.

It's a matter of understanding subwoofer performance within the greater context of system performance, versus blanket statements like:

the best small sub there is, the only negative is price.

The f113 is a cool sub, but even disregarding price, it's not necessarily the best compact sub for any given job, particularly where one is using compact speakers ala the aforementioned KEFs.

 

[morca]

Indeed, and ideally you'll learn the limit before you smoke a VC

I,am lucky or i know the limit,s ,i never blown/burned a VC.

 

[Auditor55]

It's a matter of understanding subwoofer performance within the greater context of system performance, versus blanket statements like:

The f113 is a cool sub, but even disregarding price, it's not necessarily the best compact sub for any given job, particularly where one is using compact speakers ala the aforementioned KEFs.

Well I made that statement as an opinion not a fact and I stand by my opinion. You certainly are free to disagree. Having said that, based on the reviews and happy owners, there are many people that share my opinion. Again, I doubt very few people that interested in a great small subwoofer would invest in some tiny, teeny, over priced speakers like those KEF's you mentioned.