JL Audio Fathom F113

[ss_blake]

Any chance Audioholics will formally review this sub? All the other JLA (E112/E100, F112) have been reviewed and scored very well. I would love to see the F113 (v2?) tested..

I can't find CEA2010 data on it anywhere, and despite this, many crown it the best compact, sealed sub in the world.

 

[shadyJ]

I doubt you will ever see the F113 tested again, at least by a reviewer. Ilkka at home theater shack tested a F113 some years ago. It looks like a nice sub, but very expensive for the performance, if you consider SPL/$ ratio. If you want a pricey sub that has a lot more performance as well as a very high-end finish and construction, I would be looking at Funk Audio. They are not compact though.

 

[Hocky]

I had an F212 and honestly, it is not a great sub.

 

[Auditor55]

I doubt you will ever see the F113 tested again, at least by a reviewer. Ilkka at home theater shack tested a F113 some years ago. It looks like a nice sub, but very expensive for the performance, if you consider SPL/$ ratio. If you want a pricey sub that has a lot more performance as well as a very high-end finish and construction, I would be looking at Funk Audio. They are not compact though.

That's a big issue, size. The F113, I would say is the best small sub there is, the only negative is price.

 

[Auditor55]

I had an F212 and honestly, it is not a great sub.

Can you explain why the F212 is not a great sub?

 

[Hocky]

I could easily drive it to mechanical noise at low frequencies at not so loud SPL's (100db ish) and the amp failed twice causing me to ship it back for repair at my expense. I can assure you that shipped a 300lb, awkard shape package is not inexpensive. lol. My experience with my PB13Ultras has been better in every way. They outperform the 212 by sounding better, playing louder, and never having any issues.

 

[Steve81]

The F113, I would say is the best small sub there is, the only negative is price.

That's not the only negative; the rolled off top end means you wouldn't want to utilize an XO much higher than 80Hz. That can be a problematic if you'd like to use a small subwoofer with small speakers.

 

[shadyJ]

That's not the only negative; the rolled off top end means you wouldn't want to utilize an XO much higher than 80Hz. That can be a problematic if you'd like to use a small subwoofer with small speakers.

I can find two response charts for the F113:

and...

The first chart, taken from home theater shack, isn't that bad in the high end when the crossover is bypassed as it is in most setups, the second from Sound and Vision, which isn't really that good, but they don't say how the crossover is set in that one (looks like crossover at max). Overall its a pretty capable subwoofer, although ridiculously priced even considering its capabilities.

 

[Steve81]

the second from Sound and Vision, which isn't really that good, but they don't say how the crossover is set in that one (looks like crossover at max).

Per the S&V review:

The upper –3-dB point is at 111 Hz with the LP Filter switch set to off. Please note that the response begins to fall off above 60 Hz and therefore is not flat at our reference frequency of 80 Hz. When normalized to the level at 60 Hz, the lower –3-dB point is at 20 Hz, the –6-dB point is at 18 Hz, and the upper –3-dB point is at 93 Hz.

Not exactly the kind of performance you'd want if you're looking to set a 120Hz XO. Even Ilkka's graph is far from optimal for an XO that high. Compare that with the aforementioned Funk:

 

[shadyJ]

I am not saying its great, but it looks to me like you could reasonably use it up to 100 Hz or so. I have seen worse anyway.

 

[Steve81]

I have seen worse anyway.

I've seen worse as well, but one does tend to have certain expectations from a $4,300 product.

I simply find it ironic that the one big selling point of the f113 is its power to size ratio, but it's not provided with the top end extension necessary to mate well with and make the most of the smaller speakers it's likely to be paired with.

 

[Auditor55]

I've seen worse as well, but one does tend to have certain expectations from a $4,300 product.

I simply find it ironic that the one big selling point of the f113 is its power to size ratio, but it's not provided with the top end extension necessary to mate well with and make the most of the smaller speakers it's likely to be paired with.

Come on, if you are buying a high end sub like the F113 you're not going to have some little speakers with tiny sound. Most likely you're going that have speakers that extend down to at least 40 hz so you can cross them over at 80HZ.

 

[Steve81]

Come on, if you are buying a high end sub like the F113 you're not going to have some little speakers with tiny sound.

Because there's no such thing as a high end mini-monitor?

It doesn't really matter how deep such speakers claim to dig; they all benefit from a higher XO as it dramatically reduces excursion requirements. Barring port contributions, delivering X dB at 80Hz requires more than double the displacement/excursion versus producing the X dB at 120Hz. That's a big deal when you're working with a single 4-6" driver.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am a big fan of setting the XO above 100Hz.

I think the consensus is that JL is simply overpriced.

They are not bad. But for the same price as JL, you could do better. And for much less than JL, you could do at least as well.

 

[fuzz092888]

Because there's no such thing as a high end mini-monitor?

It doesn't really matter how deep such speakers claim to dig; they all benefit from a higher XO as it dramatically reduces excursion requirements. Barring port contributions, delivering X dB at 80Hz requires more than double the displacement/excursion versus producing the X dB at 120Hz. That's a big deal when you're working with a single 4-6" driver.

To Steve's point, even with the Testarossa's, which are floorstanding speakers with dual 6" Satori mid/woofers they still benefit from being crossed over to some capable subs. They're in a PR alignment which provides useful output into the 30s, but crossing over at 80-100Hz greatly reduces the stress on those woofers and to my ears, cleans up the midrange a little bit.

Just because they can play into the 30s doesn't mean that they still don't benefit from being crossed over.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

To Steve's point, even with the Testarossa's, which are floorstanding speakers with dual 6" Satori mid/woofers they still benefit from being crossed over to some capable subs. They're in a PR alignment which provides useful output into the 30s, but crossing over at 80-100Hz greatly reduces the stress on those woofers and to my ears, cleans up the midrange a little bit.

Just because they can play into the 30s doesn't mean that they still don't benefit from being crossed over.

Yeah, even with Salon2, 802 Diamond, Orion, Phil3, which all could play below 30Hz, I always set the XO high.

 

[Auditor55]

Because there's no such thing as a high end mini-monitor?

It doesn't really matter how deep such speakers claim to dig; they all benefit from a higher XO as it dramatically reduces excursion requirements. Barring port contributions, delivering X dB at 80Hz requires more than double the displacement/excursion versus producing the X dB at 120Hz. That's a big deal when you're working with a single 4-6" driver.

There is no real benefit to crossing over above 80 HZ, I think THX got it right, unless you have some tiny, teeny speakers, that you find in home theater in a box type system. Most likely, for sub we discuss and purchase around here, I doubt most will be investing in speakers that require you to set the crossover above 100 HZ to get them rightly integrated with the sub. If you like to set your crossover above 100 HZ, that's more of preference than a requirement.

 

[Auditor55]

Because there's no such thing as a high end mini-monitor?

It doesn't really matter how deep such speakers claim to dig; they all benefit from a higher XO as it dramatically reduces excursion requirements. Barring port contributions, delivering X dB at 80Hz requires more than double the displacement/excursion versus producing the X dB at 120Hz. That's a big deal when you're working with a single 4-6" driver.

Steve81 is arguing in the opposite direction, he is lamenting the F113's mediocre response at 100 hz, which means that if you wanted to cross your speakers over at 120Hz, the F113 would be inadequate. Quiet honestly, I don't regard that as weakness because the F113 wasn't designed for extremely limited frequency response. Even the Kef's that Steve81 has in his system, including the surrounds, the F113 would integrate well with his speakers, he could set his crossover to 80Hz and he would be good to go.

 

[Auditor55]

I could easily drive it to mechanical noise at low frequencies at not so loud SPL's (100db ish) and the amp failed twice causing me to ship it back for repair at my expense. I can assure you that shipped a 300lb, awkard shape package is not inexpensive. lol. My experience with my PB13Ultras has been better in every way. They outperform the 212 by sounding better, playing louder, and never having any issues.

It sounds to me like you had a faulty unit. Every company probably have a bad apple every now and then. Also, 100 hz is loud, loud enough to damage your hearing.

 

[fuzz092888]

Steve81 is arguing in the opposite direction, he is lamenting the F113's mediocre response at 100 hz, which means that if you wanted to cross your speakers over at 120Hz, the F113 would be inadequate. Quiet honestly, I don't regard that as weakness because the F113 wasn't designed for extremely limited frequency response. Even the Kef's that Steve81 has in his system, including the surrounds, the F113 would integrate well with his speakers, he could set his crossover to 80Hz and he would be good to go.

There is no real benefit to crossing over above 80 HZ, I think THX got it right, unless you have some tiny, teeny speakers, that you find in home theater in a box type system. Most likely, for sub we discuss and purchase around here, I doubt most will be investing in speakers that require you to set the crossover above 100 HZ to get them rightly integrated with the sub. If you like to set your crossover above 100 HZ, that's more of preference than a requirement.

A crossover isn't a brick wall and depending on the slope of the HP and LP filters you could have very real implications an octave or two above and below the crossover frequency.

To say that response at 100Hz doesn't come into play with a crossover of 80Hz displays an incomplete understanding of a how a crossover works. Others can explain it better than I, but an octave above a crossover of 80Hz is 160Hz and an octave under 80Hz is 40Hz. So ideally you'd want your speakers able to play reasonably well to 40Hz and your sub to be good to 160Hz. Using steep slopes like 24db/oct can help minimize the lack of an extended response, but it still can have an impact.

There definitely can be a benefit to crossing above 80Hz and it has a lot to do with the speakers in question, room acoustics, and of course like you said personal preference. Obviously the tricky part is that as you cross higher sound waves get more directional so you have to then be careful with sub and speaker placement, but I think saying that there is zero benefit is a bit too much of a blanket statement to really hold water.