JL Audio Fathom F113

[fuzz092888]

Well I made that statement as an opinion not a fact and I stand by my opinion. You certainly are free to disagree. Having said that, based on the reviews and happy owners, there are many people that share my opinion. Again, I doubt very few people that interested in a great small subwoofer would invest in some tiny, teeny, over priced speakers like those KEF's you mentioned.

I think you're making a big assumption about the consumer in question and those selling such items. The stuff Steve has mentioned requires a fair amount of knowledge about subs, speakers, small room acoustics, and subwoofer/speaker integration. I question how many consumers/salespeople looking at the F113 or selling understand enough to know that you can pair that sub with a small set of bookshelves and how many are looking for an upgrade to a Bose cube system or want a small profile system.

From an alternate perspective, especially one not as well versed in all that stuff, pairing the F113 with small high quality bookshelf speakers seems pretty appealing. On their own, speakers and subwoofer offer a ton of performance in a small footprint. While I'm painting with a pretty broad stroke, my guess is that the consumer looking to spend $4-8K on a little sub or a pair of them, then another $4+K on a pair of 5 channel system, aesthetics and size become a big consideration.

Places like AH, AVS to an extent, and especially PETT exist more in the bubble than out of the bubble. Most of us are not the target consumer of such items mainly because if you're here you've probably either taken the time to research these issues or at least care enough to ask. Then again by the same token, if you don't know or care, you may not care about the potential mismatch either

What were we talking about again?

 

[Steve81]

Well I made that statement as an opinion not a fact and I stand by my opinion.

Saying its the best is an opinion. Stating that the only negative is price is verifiable false.

Having said that, based on the reviews and happy owners, there are many people that share my opinion.

Alas, measured performance doesn't lie.

Again, I doubt very few people that interested in a great small subwoofer would invest in some tiny, teeny, over priced speakers like those KEF's you mentioned.

Certainly they wouldn't be well advised to do so given the f113's limited top end extension. Of course, in opting to say which product is underperforming, one should bear in mind that the LS50's experience similar limits to pretty much any 2-way speaker with a =<5.25" woofer. That's just a matter of basic physics. In the case of the f113, it's just mediocre engineering, as there's nothing inherently preventing a 13" driver from extending to 200+Hz.

 

[Auditor55]

I think you're making a big assumption about the consumer in question and those selling such items. The stuff Steve has mentioned requires a fair amount of knowledge about subs, speakers, small room acoustics, and subwoofer/speaker integration. I question how many consumers/salespeople looking at the F113 or selling understand enough to know that you can pair that sub with a small set of bookshelves and how many are looking for an upgrade to a Bose cube system or want a small profile system.

From an alternate perspective, especially one not as well versed in all that stuff, pairing the F113 with small high quality bookshelf speakers seems pretty appealing. On their own, speakers and subwoofer offer a ton of performance in a small footprint. While I'm painting with a pretty broad stroke, my guess is that the consumer looking to spend $4-8K on a little sub or a pair of them, then another $4+K on a pair of 5 channel system, aesthetics and size become a big consideration.

Places like AH, AVS to an extent, and especially PETT exist more in the bubble than out of the bubble. Most of us are not the target consumer of such items mainly because if you're here you've probably either taken the time to research these issues or at least care enough to ask. Then again by the same token, if you don't know or care, you may not care about the potential mismatch either

What were we talking about again?

There is enough information available, if one researches, to learn about small room acoustics, subwoofer speakers integration to help a person optimize their system.


Having said that, typically people spending money on products like JL Audio/Fathom are probably not your prototypical "Joe Six pack" consumer and he/she has at least a working knowledge about this audio stuff.



Again, when it comes to products like a f113, it is highly unlikely that your every day consumer is purchasing products like it. Its probably more of the AH and or AVS forum types investing such gear. Do to its price, the JL F113 is probably more of niche or high-end audio product

 

[Auditor55]

Saying its the best is an opinion. Stating that the only negative is price is verifiable false.


Alas, measured performance doesn't lie.


Certainly they wouldn't be well advised to do so given the f113's limited top end extension. Of course, in opting to say which product is underperforming, one should bear in mind that the LS50's experience similar limits to pretty much any 2-way speaker with a =<5.25" woofer. That's just a matter of basic physics. In the case of the f113, it's just mediocre engineering, as there's nothing inherently preventing a 13" driver from extending to 200+Hz.

When I mentioned my opinion, I wasn't saying it was the best subwoofer period, I said the best small subwoofer and that sir is an opinion. You can't produce any facts to change that.

What you consider as a negative, for most isn't, that is your preference if you want to cross your speakers over at 120HZ. Let me quote from someone that reviewed the F113.

"I evaluated the Fathom f113 in three widely varying system configurations, each designed to reveal different aspects of the unit’s performance. I first mated the f113 with a pair of Totem Arro speakers, using the crossover in an Arcam AV9 controller to high-pass-filter the Arro and low-pass-filter the Fathom. Mating a 13.5" woofer with the Arro, a 4.5" two-way, is perhaps not a real-world scenario, but one that nonetheless reveals much about a subwoofer’s upper-bass performance. I’m accustomed to setting a subwoofer’s crossover frequency as low as possible under the assumption that subwoofers are simply not as good reproducers of midbass and upper bass as are main speakers. The higher the frequency a subwoofer is asked to reproduce, the greater the potential for hearing the sub’s weaknesses, as well as its inability to blend smoothly with the main speakers. A low crossover frequency minimizes the sub’s potential to do more harm than good To my surprise, the Fathom blended extremely well with the Arro, augmenting the Arro’s limited bass extension without calling attention to the fact that the midbass and lower bass were being reproduced by a radically different transducer than was the upper bass. In fact, with some careful tweaking (see the accompanying subwoofer primer this issue for set-up techniques), I’d go so far as to call the match nearly “seamless.” [Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound]

The above quote is what I was trying to explain to you, he is totally in agreement with me. He said in his review that "mating a 13.5" woofer with the Arro, a 4.5 two-way is perhaps not a real world scenario". I personally believe he is saying that for the same reason I argued, very few people are going to matching a F113 with those teeny KEF's you mentioned. That's not real world!! I suspect there are many more that share his and my view as opposed to yours, that why we have a de facto standard crossover which is at 80 HZ.

 

[Auditor55]

I looked at some small bookshelf type speakers that I believe are popular around forums like Audioholics and AVS, that more than likely a person that owns a F113 would own or contemplate purchasing to match with their sub. I tried to look at speakers are that close in price to the KEF's LS50's, while not as small as satellites, still very small. I faintly remember reading on one HT enthusiast forum, I can't remember which one, where there was a poll of the most popular speakers in that forum. Anyway, I believe the below listed speaker brand/types, even more capable speakers, are more likely to be purchased by a F113 owner. As as you can see, you would't have to cross them over at 120 HZ unless you preferred to do so.


Paradigm Signature S2 v.3
52 Hz - 45 kHz
$1580

B&W CM5 S2
50Hz - 28kHz
$1590

Goldenear Aon3
38 Hz - 35 kHz
$1000

MartinLogan Motion 35XT
50-25,k Hz
$1250

 

[Steve81]

That's not real world!!

Clearly, and that in and of itself is the problem. What's the point of a compact sub where a reviewer implies that it wouldn't tend to work well with compact speakers? If size isn't at that much of a premium, better subs are available for less money that are only marginally larger. You said earlier that the f113 was a niche product. Boy is it ever.... Still, if your idea of the "best small subwoofer" is one that tends to work poorly with small speakers, more power to you. I'm all done.