What is "pure direct"?

[RichB]

Pure direct on my units turns the panel light off....that makes it purer.

The definition of a Marketing Feature.

There are processors that get this right by providing separate preference settings for the front-panel On/Off which has nothing to do with PD.

- Rich

 

[lovinthehd]

Then there's the conundrum of checking the status of various settings, which requires OSD and....processing?

 

[RichB]

Then there's the conundrum of checking the status of various settings, which requires OSD and....processing?

I don't suggest buying a processor that uses its DSPs for control logic.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wait, so Acu is saying that there is no EQ or DSP with PD, which means no Audyssey right with LFE + Main?

And Rich, you're saying that PD does not bypass Audyssey with LFE + Main?

Just for further clarification, with LFE + Main and PD should the subs still be playing?

With PD, LFE + Main still gets you Subwoofer output.

They can keep all signals & Subwoofer Crossover in the digital domain until the very end when they have to do DAC.

 

[lovinthehd]

Used or not I can't "see" what PD does on my Denon without afaik (don't think the panel works for that and I ain't crawlin' around down there to find out ). I just put it in pure mode while I had the audio info on the tv/OSD and it turned it off, and shows first direct but when it goes to PD it won't display that on screen, just on the panel and then turns off the panel. It sounds like maybe it just retains level/distance settings?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Audyssey is disabled with PD, but all DSP processing is not disabled.

LFE+Main operates with PD so there is DSP processing.

Where is your proof that DSP is involved if there is Subwoofer output?

You assume that there is always Analog to Digital Conversion if there is subwoofer output. Why?

You don't think all signals (including Subwoofer Crossover) in Pure Direct could be kept in the digital domain and then go through DAC at the end, which all pre-pros will require?

Engineers can keep the digital subwoofer crossovers and all digital signals in the digital domain until the very end without resorting to secondary analog circuitry in between.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It is obvious. It cannot be done on the 7.1 inputs, all bass management is performed by DSP. This is bass management. QED.

- Rich

So you don't think they make ANALOG crossovers for analog signals?

You think all analog systems have to convert analog signal to Digital signal because they don't make analog crossovers?

My Orion system has ACTIVE ANALOG crossovers. So do other analog systems.

They make both analog and digital crossovers.

If they can put analog crossovers in speakers, they can also put analog crossovers in AVR and pre-pros for the analog inputs.

At least the GOOD companies and engineers should be able to do that.

For digital signals (most of us who use HDMI), they keep all signals including subwoofer crossovers in the digital domain. They do NOT have to resort to DSP because all the signals (including subwoofer crossover) are already digital.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Again, my simple real life proof that there is no post-processing (ADC, DSP) in Direct Mode because there is absolutely no time delay when using an EXTERNAL mixer and microphone source.

When there is DSP and post-processing, there is a time delay because of the post-processing and DSP.

In Direct mode, there is no DSP and Post-processing because there is absolutely no time delay in the signal.

That is because for Analog Signal, there is also Analog Crossover.

 

[little wing]

Pure direct on my Yamaha turns off all processing, and all unnecessary circuits to supposedly create a very clean unpolluted signal straight through to the speakers. There is no subwoofer output. So if your speakers have decent bass response and you don't want sub output you can try the pure direct mode. Maybe the recording you're listening to is a little bass heavy, pure direct might clean it up a bit. Just experiment with it to see how it sounds to you.

Straight- sends signals straight to the appropriate channel without any additional processing. There is sub output with Straight, and bass management is in effect.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can't "see" what PD does on my Denon

Most people can't tell the difference between "Stereo" vs "Direct" vs "Pure Direct" vs "Straight" or whatever, just like most people cannot tell the difference between amps and with passive bi-amp when LEVEL MATCHED.

But some people claim they can tell a significant improvement.

As I've mentioned, you can tell a significant difference very easily if you hook up an external mixer and microphone. When you do, with the exception of Pure Direct and Direct modes, all other modes (even Stereo) will cause a SIGNIFICANT TIME DELAY in the sound of the Microphone. This tells you that Stereo mode and all other modes (except PD & Direct) will go through Post-Processing that causes the time delay.

Other than that test, with normal listening, most people won't be able to tell the difference between Stereo mode vs Pure Direct mode.

 

[lovinthehd]

I just played some more with a digital hdmi input 5.1 tv source and my sub still works in both direct and pure direct (but only get LFE). Sub does not work on an analog 2ch input of course.

 

[little wing]

I can most definitely tell the difference between Pure direct and Straight mode on my system. Even if it's just for the fact that with one mode the sub is playing and with pure direct it is not.

 

[RichB]

So you don't think they make ANALOG crossovers for analog signals?

You think all analog systems have to convert analog signal to Digital signal because they don't make analog crossovers?

Of course, but a processor that cannot do bass management on the 7.1 analog inputs does not have these crossovers. Why? because they only have digital crossovers. This is not complicated.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Most people can't tell the difference between "Stereo" vs "Direct" vs "Pure Direct" vs "Straight" or whatever, just like most people cannot tell the difference between amps and with passive bi-amp when LEVEL MATCHED.

But some people claim they can tell a significant improvement.

When comparing a single speaker with a single amp bi-amped and single amped, level matching is not needed.

Of course, I stand by this claim. I have had three different people confirm this in a SBT.
The presence of such differences was also stated by Kevin Voecks. I mentioned this before, then you decided to downplay his role in Revel speaker design.

Those ATI amps are superfluous, have you sold them yet?

- Rich

 

[Steve81]

Of course, but a processor that cannot do bass management on the 7.1 analog inputs does not have these crossovers. Why? because they only have digital crossovers. This is not complicated.

Just to clarify what Rich is saying...

A subwoofer output doesn't necessarily require processing if the source has a separate LFE channel. However, if you're using bass management in a modern AVR or pre/pro, it's pretty much guaranteed to be done in the digital domain. The reasons are simple enough: it's easier and cheaper to implement this way. Analog bass management would require a fair amount of additional circuitry to be added in what already tends to be a fairly cramped chassis. You don't really gain anything even from a marketing perspective, as the signal is either "pure" (i.e. short, simple signal path) or its not.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Those ATI amps are superfluous, have you sold them yet?

You kidding me? Those ATI amps sound better than anything I've ever heard. Not even close. Day and Night. Astronomical. Unequivocal.

When I bi-amp, they sound TWICE as good.

When I tri-amp, they sound THRICE as good.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We are all speculating and hypothesizing about what is actually being done in AVRs.

But let me see if I can clarify my experience with Analog Inputs.

I use an external mixer and microphone. This is Analog. When I use DSP, Tones, EQ, etc., the Analog Signal is Converted to Digital. We all understand this.

So when I use DSP, Tone, EQ, etc., there is a DELAY in sound. When I speak into the microphone, there is a DELAY from the time I speak to the time it comes through the speakers.

When I use Stereo Mode with LFE + MAIN, there is a DELAY in sound. This tells me that in Stereo Mode, their is Analog to Digital Conversion, as expected.

When I use DIRECT Mode with LFE + Main, there is NO DELAY in sound at all. This tells me that there is no Analog to Digital Conversion in DIRECT mode with LFE + MAIN.

I could be wrong, but this is my hypothesis.

 

[Steve81]

We are all speculating and hypothesizing about what is actually being done in AVRs.

So don't hypothesize and speculate. Open up your AVR and search for something that looks like 7 passive crossovers.

 

[sterling shoote]

Is "pure direct" a copyright protected trade name for a circuit/function, I do not think so. Is it an AES or EIA standard for a circuit/function, I don't think so. This means pure direct could have a million and one definitions, some better than others as to what to expect when flipping the switch to engage the circuit/function, unless you were smart and just went to the definitions page within the operators manual for the unit which uses the term "pure direct", then, you'd know for sure about the functions benefit.

 

[Jaybeez]

From the online user manual for this model:

I have a 2 channel integrated (AS-501) and have this feature. I use it exclusively and enjoy it immensely (for music).

If the artist and/or producer and/or recording engineer wanted extra bass, treble or whatever, they have far better tools to add it than my rig.