agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Seems there is confusion about "Double Bass". It is about applying a frequency below which bass is sent to the subwoofer (for the want of a better term, the crossover frequency) IN ADDITION to the mains playing full range (which is why calling it a crossover frequency is a misnomer).

There is benefit in doing this only if the mains are able to produce the bass frequencies just like a subwoofer. If not, "Double Bass" will only do more harm than good.

http://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/utilizing-extra-bass
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
If we're talking about movies

From Chris Kyriakakis Audyssey

*Bolded for emphasis by me*
I understand this completely. The crossover comes into play when the speakers in any channel is set to small,
not the issue.

The OP stated I just can't get that really good bass out of the system, I am listening to mostly stereo music, any suggestions would be great
he is having issues with the lows with CD music, not necessarily with 5.1.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
I understand this completely. The crossover comes into play when the speakers in any channel is set to small,
not the issue.

The OP stated I just can't get that really good bass out of the system, I am listening to mostly stereo music, any suggestions would be great
he is having issues with the lows with CD music, not necessarily with 5.1.
I already stated with my quotes that I was talking about movies and that the confusion lies with you calling something an LFE channel. There is no LFE channel in music. So the fact that you're calling something the LFE channel when talking about music is what is confusing me.

There is no separate sub channel.
Subwoofers are usually connected to the LFE, unless you connect the L/R speaker channel to a sub's crossover to play that channel's low frequencies only.
In stereo the LFE channel is not active unless the receiver is so directed to send low frequencies to the the sub which is connected to the LFE channel so then the LFE is indeed active. Actually, you can direct the lows from all channels to the LFE when speakers are set to small, or not with this feature.
The Onkyo has this capability called Double Bass at least the model I have(others may use different name) and other receivers were posted to have this capability.
So, in stereo, 2 channel you can send the lows to the LFE channel.
If we've been talking about music, then why have you been referencing LFE and the LFE channel? LFE = Low Frequency Effects which is a sub only discrete channel present in movie sound tracks. It sounds like you're simply talking about the frequencies below the crossover point specified by the receiver during music playback. So again, I'll say it is your use of LFE that I'm not understanding.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Seems there is confusion about "Double Bass". It is about applying a frequency below which bass is sent to the subwoofer (for the want of a better term, the crossover frequency) IN ADDITION to the mains playing full range (which is why calling it a crossover frequency is a misnomer).

There is benefit in doing this only if the mains are able to produce the bass frequencies just like a subwoofer. If not, "Double Bass" will only do more harm than good.

http://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/utilizing-extra-bass
I think he failed to mention the real need of that extra bass feature, playing two channel CD. No bass goes to the LFE channel without this feature, even engaging prologic. This is useful with the digital recording of 1812 Overture.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I already stated with my quotes that I was talking about movies and that the confusion lies with you calling something an LFE channel. There is no LFE channel in music. So the fact that you're calling something the LFE channel when talking about music is what is confusing me.



If we've been talking about music, then why have you been referencing LFE and the LFE channel? LFE = Low Frequency Effects which is a sub only discrete channel present in movie sound tracks. It sounds like you're simply talking about the frequencies below the crossover point specified by the receiver during music playback. So again, I'll say it is your use of LFE that I'm not understanding.
The OP's original post was about lack of bass playing Cd music.
Of course there is no LFE channel on a CD.
Using this double bass/extra bass, whichever, allows sending the low frequency content of a CD to the LFE channel as that is where the sub is connected. The sub is, should be more capable of reproducing the low frequency content, especially when the sub can be selectively boosted.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
The OP's original post was about lack of bass playing Cd music.
Using this double bass/extra bass, whichever, allows sending the low frequency content of a CD to the LFE channel as that is where the sub is connected. The sub is, should be more capable of reproducing the low frequency content, especially when the sub can be selectively boosted.
1. The low frequency content is already sent to the subwoofer via the sub out RCA and the frequencies that are sent to the subwoofer are dictated by the crossover frequency. For his Denon, if the subwoofer has been set to "on" and a crossover frequency has been selected the Denon should be sending content below the crossover frequency to the subwoofer without selecting double bass in stereo mode as stated by his receiver's manual.

2. The subwoofer is not connected to the LFE channel. See post 83.

3. Double bass means that the subwoofer is playing the frequencies below the crossover frequency specified in the settings, but the main L/R are have not technically been crossed over and are playing full range, as if set to "Large". This is not a necessary setting to achieve output from the subwoofer in stereo mode.

4. This all may be different from the way your Onkyo functions.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
is it better to tweak the level adjustments that odyssey set in the main settings or use the channel trims outside the settings that come with each sound mode
matt,
Here's how my Denon X4000 works.
I use the "Cbl/Sat" input for TV, (as that's where the HDMI cable from my SAT box goes to the AVR). While in that mode, with the TV on, I can go into Settings > Audio > Subwoofer Level, (on the AVR remote). There I set the sub levels to whatever I want for TV. The settings will remain every time I use the Cbl/Sat input.

Now I want to listen to Pandora. I select NETWORK and load Pandora. While listening, once again I go into Settings>Audio>Subwoofer Level. I set the sub levels to whatever I want for Pandora music. The settings will remain every time I use the NETWORK input.

Same for the Bluray input for movies.
Same for the CD input for CD music.

I think this is what you're after. I like BIG BOOMS in movies. I like more accurate bass levels in music. Setting my subs this way gives me both, automatically. Try it on your AVR and see if it doesn't work the same way.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I already stated with my quotes that I was talking about movies and that the confusion lies with you calling something an LFE channel. There is no LFE channel in music. So the fact that you're calling something the LFE channel when talking about music is what is confusing me.



If we've been talking about music, then why have you been referencing LFE and the LFE channel? LFE = Low Frequency Effects which is a sub only discrete channel present in movie sound tracks. It sounds like you're simply talking about the frequencies below the crossover point specified by the receiver during music playback. So again, I'll say it is your use of LFE that I'm not understanding.
OK, you are correct in all this, I was mistaken. The receiver back panel does show 'sub out.' As I don't look back there but on initial setup, forgot how it is labeled anymore.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
Op,

No matter what pre-sets you've engaged to enjoy your subwoofer, assuming that by one or another means you can also set the sub's volume relative to mains, you may still want to play music without the sub at all, that is if your main stereo speakers can get down to subwoofer levels, or you have a means to adjust the sub level on the fly, since bass levels will undoubtedly vary with the music selection. Also, you may have a preference for more or less bass to complement your perception of how things should sound. In other words, don't accept what any speaker adjustment program is telling you about how to enjoy your music. Go back to my original post and get the downloads I suggested. These really bass heavy tunes will likely give you an understanding that there will always be instances where you are going to get the impression of having too much or too little bass.
 
M

matt houser

Audioholic
Op,

No matter what pre-sets you've engaged to enjoy your subwoofer, assuming that by one or another means you can also set the sub's volume relative to mains, you may still want to play music without the sub at all, that is if your main stereo speakers can get down to subwoofer levels, or you have a means to adjust the sub level on the fly, since bass levels will undoubtedly vary with the music selection. Also, you may have a preference for more or less bass to complement your perception of how things should sound. In other words, don't accept what any speaker adjustment program is telling you about how to enjoy your music. Go back to my original post and get the downloads I suggested. These really bass heavy tunes will likely give you an understanding that there will always be instances where you are going to get the impression of having too much or too little bass.
Thank you sterling, my fronts are the ascend acoustics cmt 340se's, i'm not sure these speakers can handle low bass with the authority so even for stereo music my guess is that the sub is needed, I do agree with you that the base levels in music are very inconsistent, I do have an on-the-fly channel level adjustment, so far this is the best solution that I have found
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
I'm just not seeing what the problem with Matt's setup truly is?

1) Good speakers/equipment
- Confirmed

2) Getting good bass for BD movies
- Confirmed

3) Performed "Subwoofer Crawl" to ensure optimal placement of sub
- Unconfirmed

4) Properly setup crossover setting in AVR
- Unconfirmed

5) Not using Pure Direct Mode with 2.0 recordings
- Unconfirmed
 
M

matt houser

Audioholic
I'm just not seeing what the problem with Matt's setup truly is?

1) Good speakers/equipment
- Confirmed

2) Getting good bass for BD movies
- Confirmed

3) Performed "Subwoofer Crawl" to ensure optimal placement of sub
- Unconfirmed

4) Properly setup crossover setting in AVR
- Unconfirmed

5) Not using Pure Direct Mode with 2.0 recordings
- Unconfirmed
I have performed the sub woofer crawl, I don't use pure Direct mode I am aware that it turns off the sub woofer, over the last day I have gotten my system to sound pretty good one of my problems was that I believe I had my gain set too high on the sub and it was causing Odyssey to set my level as far down as it can go, The only thing that I have left to do is continue to experiment to find the perfect crossover for this system, I am using the standard 80 Hz crossover at the moment
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
Set the crossover for what the sub manufacturer recommends; but, realize you will be re-adjusting it for each thing you play. This is the concern with a sub, they can be difficult to integrate successfully. My sub has a recommended 65Hz crossover when used with my JBL L100t3 mains. Since I do not have an adjustable crossover, what I've done is set the volume of sub to match my mains from the sub's amp. It's all I can do. For music I run my pre/pro in 2 channel stereo without sub output, except for house/dance music. I usually have a very satisfying listening experience. I do however have mains which do a really good job with bass as they were expected to do, since they were made at a time when subs were very rare, and HT, never mind stereo movies, were not yet on the scene. Today's HT speaker packages solve some crossover issues; but, adding a sub to a stereo system where a sub was not considered in releasing the mains, integration success could be limited; and, may require constant tweaking. Of course there are mains out there which pretty much need a sub but unless you buy a sub designed for those mains you're likely to need to constantly keep up that sort of system too. In other words, the system is really not a system.
 
Last edited:
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Set the crossover for what the sub manufacturer recommends; but, realize you will be re-adjusting it for each thing you play. This is the concern with a sub, they can be difficult to integrate successfully.
That's just silly. You've been reading too much Stereophile and The Absolute Sound bs, or you just don't know what you're talking about.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I set my XO @ 150Hz because I want to hear that "Stereo Bass" that Gene talks about. ;)

I think Gene sets the XO for his Main Subs @ 250Hz.
 
M

matt houser

Audioholic
I set my XO @ 150Hz because I want to hear that "Stereo Bass" that Gene talks about. ;)

I think Gene sets the XO for his Main Subs @ 250Hz.
Are you being serious this just seems like the opposite of what I have read, do you have any links to this information
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Are you being serious this just seems like the opposite of what I have read, do you have any links to this information
I am serious. I do set my XO at 150Hz. You can read Gene's latest article & YouTube video.

I believe Mark & Nathan @ Funk Audio have also mentioned in the past that setting XO @ 150-200Hz works for some people, assuming their subs are flat (-3dB) out to 200Hz.

My 10" subs are flat to 180Hz, so I use 150Hz for Stereo Bass.

Gene's main 15" subs are flat to like 300Hz, so he uses 250Hz for the main subs for Stereo Bass, but uses 80Hz for the rest of the 10" subs.

80Hz is a good number to stick with. But you should experiment with other XO points.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
80Hz is a good number to stick with. But you should experiment with other XO points.
This is the best advice. While there may be some advantages in some systems with a very high crossover, I suggest it is not for the novice or the average system.
 

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