Bass

[speakerman39]

If your settings don't allow for dual subs, then it is already seeing both as one sub with the dual sub outs.

I see. Then, it sounds like Multi EQ XT32 w/Sub EQ has a lot more to offer than XT. Wished I had known that before buying the 6009. Oh well, we all live and learn. Thanks for the info.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KenM10759]

If I recall, this discussion started as a question about bass output levels. The only thing Audyssey does do that can be visually verified is the crossover points, distances and levels. While I completely understand that equalization curves across the spectrum of sound are the primary function, those settings are what we can easily see to verify that some change has taken effect. That's all I'm suggesting.

As for Audyssey MultEQ XT versus Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with Sub EQ or the best Audyssey MultEQ Pro , there's quite big differenced between them and what they can do. I'd like to believe MultEQ XT32 w/sub, when included with a receiver, is the best possible without going to a true standalone measurement and correction system such as REW.

 

[fuzz092888]

If I recall, this discussion started as a question about bass output levels. The only thing Audyssey does do that can be visually verified is the crossover points, distances and levels. While I completely understand that equalization curves across the spectrum of sound are the primary function, those settings are what we can easily see to verify that some change has taken effect. That's all I'm suggesting.

As for Audyssey MultEQ XT versus Audyssey MultEQ XT32 with Sub EQ or the best Audyssey MultEQ Pro , there's quite big differenced between them and what they can do. I'd like to believe MultEQ XT32 w/sub, when included with a receiver, is the best possible without going to a true standalone measurement and correction system such as REW.

I've verified with measurements what Audyssey does for me. XT32 with Sub EQ is definitely better than XT IME. PRO just gives you more measuring positions, something like 32 IIRC, and allows you to specify the curve and tweak PEQ bands IIRC. However, at a cost of like $300.

 

[herbu]

I can't get good solid base out of the system

Matt,
Wow! You generated a lot of response and a lot of information. Some of it is hard for my simple mind to follow. This is what I understand...

Audyssey is used to balance your speakers, including subs. To do this, it can raise or lower the volume of each speaker in your AVR, but only by +/- 12dB. So after running Audyssey, if any speaker shows a setting of +/- 12dB, it means Audyssey went to the max of its adjustment capability. You don't know if it's enough, or if Audyssey simply ran out of adjustment capability. If your sub shows -12dB, Audyssey determined it was too loud and turned it down as much as it could.

Now that means your AVR is at its limit to decrease the volume of your sub. (I know you want it louder, but stay with me. Remember our initial setup is all about balance. Once you set up that initial balance, you can easily adjust whatever you want to your preference.)

So ideally, you want your setup (Audyssey) to have all speakers near +/- 0dB, so you have maximum flexibility to adjust any speaker up or down as you wish, (up to +/- 12dB). Your sub is the only speaker that has its own volume/gain adjustment on the speaker. Audyssey is telling you the sub is at least 12dB too loud, so you need to turn down the gain on back of your sub by 12dB, and run Audyssey again. Keep repeating that process until Audyssey sets your sub volume at or very near 0dB.

Now your volume is balanced. Your bass is at the level it was intended. (BTW, after Audyssey don't forget to change your speakers to Small, and set your crossover ~80Hz.)

Your AVR has flexibility to easily set the bass where you want it for music, and a different volume for movies. Read the manual. You can set it up so when you select "Stereo", your sub is at whatever level you want. If you like a lot of bass, you can set it so. When you select TV or Movie, you can automatically get a different bass level.

But the point is, if you begin with an accurate and balanced setup w/ Audyssey, you'll know your system is delivering accurate levels. After that, it is all personal preference.

 

[matt houser]

Matt,
Wow! You generated a lot of response and a lot of information. Some of it is hard for my simple mind to follow. This is what I understand...

Audyssey is used to balance your speakers, including subs. To do this, it can raise or lower the volume of each speaker in your AVR, but only by +/- 12dB. So after running Audyssey, if any speaker shows a setting of +/- 12dB, it means Audyssey went to the max of its adjustment capability. You don't know if it's enough, or if Audyssey simply ran out of adjustment capability. If your sub shows -12dB, Audyssey determined it was too loud and turned it down as much as it could.

Now that means your AVR is at its limit to decrease the volume of your sub. (I know you want it louder, but stay with me. Remember our initial setup is all about balance. Once you set up that initial balance, you can easily adjust whatever you want to your preference.)

So ideally, you want your setup (Audyssey) to have all speakers near +/- 0dB, so you have maximum flexibility to adjust any speaker up or down as you wish, (up to +/- 12dB). Your sub is the only speaker that has its own volume/gain adjustment on the speaker. Audyssey is telling you the sub is at least 12dB too loud, so you need to turn down the gain on back of your sub by 12dB, and run Audyssey again. Keep repeating that process until Audyssey sets your sub volume at or very near 0dB.

Now your volume is balanced. Your bass is at the level it was intended. (BTW, after Audyssey don't forget to change your speakers to Small, and set your crossover ~80Hz.)

Your AVR has flexibility to easily set the bass where you want it for music, and a different volume for movies. Read the manual. You can set it up so when you select "Stereo", your sub is at whatever level you want. If you like a lot of bass, you can set it so. When you select TV or Movie, you can automatically get a different bass level.

But the point is, if you begin with an accurate and balanced setup w/ Audyssey, you'll know your system is delivering accurate levels. After that, it is all personal preference.

Thanks very well explained, I have another question of confusion, once you get your system levels ballanced with audyssey & you would like to make your own adjustments, is it better to tweak the level adjustments that odyssey set in the main settings or use the channel trims outside the settings that come with each sound mode

 

[fuzz092888]

Thanks very well explained, I have another question of confusion, once you get your system levels ballanced with audyssey & you would like to make your own adjustments, is it better to tweak the level adjustments that odyssey set in the main settings or use the channel trims outside the settings that come with each sound mode

Depends. Why are you adjusting the levels after Audyssey?

 

[matt houser]

Depends. Why are you adjusting the levels after Audyssey?

To get the bass a little closer to my personal preferences

 

[KenM10759]

My choice has been to tweak the bass output via the Audyssey settings as it's usually only 1 to 3 dB and it's easier to go back to original settings. With the knob on the back of the sub, can you recall exactly where it started without first marking it?

BTW, I've had to recalibrate a couple times in the past three months. First I upgraded center speaker from a BIC to the KEF R200c, then the rear surrounds from some old Infinity to KEF R100, then a few weeks ago, the SB1000 sub to an SB2000. Even tweaking position of speakers I would recalibrate. It only takes 10-15 minutes.

 

[matt houser]

Thanks, I wasn't meaning adjust the knob on the sub though, when doing your own fine tuning after audyssey is complete there are two places to adjust your trims, the very levels that audyssey sets inside the speaker settings, or there are also available adjustments in each available sound mode/source, would it be better to apply your own fine-tuning adjustments outside the main settings in these separate level adjustments

 

[fuzz092888]

To get the bass a little closer to my personal preferences

Then I would tweak with the gain of the sub first up to a quarter turn and then the levels.

 

[speakerman39]

Then I would tweak with the gain of the sub first up to a quarter turn and then the levels.

Fuzz, that is basically what I do as well. Just try my best to be careful and NOT turn it up too much. Appreciate your help.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[mtrycrafts]

There is no LFE channel in music. The LFE channel is a separate channel present in movies only.

Yes, but you didn't understand my reply.
You should be able to send the low frequency from the other channels to the LFE channel when in stereo mode. The Onkyo can, and am sure all others too.
Then, he could get a better response to those lows.

 

[fuzz092888]

Yes, but you didn't understand my reply.
You should be able to send the low frequency from the other channels to the LFE channel when in stereo mode. The Onkyo can, and am sure all others too.
Then, he could get a better response to those lows.

I think it's the way you're wording things. The LFE channel is dedicated to the subwoofer. You aren't sending the content from the other speakers to the LFE channel, but sending it to the subwoofer which would play that content + the LFE channel content. The LFE channel cannot be played through any of the speakers and if there is no subwoofer you simply do not get the LFE channel.

Like you said, because the LFE is subwoofer only it doesn't matter how many speakers are present, the subwoofer would get the LFE channel.

If the subs are turned on when in stereo mode and the front LR are crossed over then the low frequency content is being sent there in addition to the LFE channel. I do t know if that's what you meant by other channels or not though.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I think it's the way you're wording things. The LFE channel is dedicated to the subwoofer. You aren't sending the content from the other speakers to the LFE channel, but sending it to the subwoofer which would play that content + the LFE channel content. The LFE channel cannot be played through any of the speakers and if there is no subwoofer you simply do not get the LFE channel.

Like you said, because the LFE is subwoofer only it doesn't matter how many speakers are present, the subwoofer would get the LFE channel.

If the subs are turned on when in stereo mode and the front LR are crossed over then the low frequency content is being sent there in addition to the LFE channel. I do t know if that's what you meant by other channels or not though.

There is no separate sub channel.
Subwoofers are usually connected to the LFE, unless you connect the L/R speaker channel to a sub's crossover to play that channel's low frequencies only.
In stereo the LFE channel is not active unless the receiver is so directed to send low frequencies to the the sub which is connected to the LFE channel so then the LFE is indeed active. Actually, you can direct the lows from all channels to the LFE when speakers are set to small, or not with this feature.
The Onkyo has this capability called Double Bass at least the model I have(others may use different name) and other receivers were posted to have this capability.
So, in stereo, 2 channel you can send the lows to the LFE channel.

 

[fuzz092888]

There is no separate sub channel.
Subwoofers are usually connected to the LFE, unless you connect the L/R speaker channel to a sub's crossover to play that channel's low frequencies only.
In stereo the LFE channel is not active unless the receiver is so directed to send low frequencies to the the sub which is connected to the LFE channel so then the LFE is indeed active. Actually, you can direct the lows from all channels to the LFE when speakers are set to small, or not with this feature.
The Onkyo has this capability called Double Bass at least the model I have(others may use different name) and other receivers were posted to have this capability.
So, in stereo, 2 channel you can send the lows to the LFE channel.

If we're talking about movies

From Chris Kyriakakis Audyssey

*Bolded for emphasis by me*

The LFE signal and the bass management crossover are two different things.

The crossover is responsible for taking the bass from the speakers and sending it to the subwoofer. That should be set at around the frequency where your speakers are no longer able to reproduce bass. This is called the crossover frequency.

In 5.1 content, there is an additional bass-only track called the LFE track. This is not played from the main speakers, but only from the subwoofer. This track is authored to have content up to 120 Hz and so the filter in the AVR called LFE Lowpass should be set to 120 Hz. Always. It is a mistake for AVR makers to even make this an option as it has nothing to do with bass management.

 

[fuzz092888]

There is no separate sub channel.
Subwoofers are usually connected to the LFE, unless you connect the L/R speaker channel to a sub's crossover to play that channel's low frequencies only.
In stereo the LFE channel is not active unless the receiver is so directed to send low frequencies to the the sub which is connected to the LFE channel so then the LFE is indeed active. Actually, you can direct the lows from all channels to the LFE when speakers are set to small, or not with this feature.
The Onkyo has this capability called Double Bass at least the model I have(others may use different name) and other receivers were posted to have this capability.
So, in stereo, 2 channel you can send the lows to the LFE channel.

In the lossless audio codecs there is a dedicated LFE subwoofer only channel.

Crutchfield



Unless I'm mistaken, taking lossless audio codecs like DTS HD MSTR and Dolby TrueHD and downmixing them to stereo doesn't affect the LFE channel in stereo as long as the receiver stills "knows" the subwoofer is there. Again, this is for movies and the LFE channel. If we're not talking about movies, then I'm a little lost with the the reference to the LFE channel.

 

[KenM10759]

Interesting. With that 120hz thing in mind, I'll keep the crossovers in Audyssey at the 60hz (front mains) and 80hz (surrounds) as they are for over 90% of my listening, which is 2.1 music. If I pop a DVD or BluRay disk in, I can go easily into settings and put it at 120hz, which I know my sub handles perfectly fine.

I do like hearing the lower notes my mains can do to be coming out of them. Or am I deluding myself?

This makes me wonder why Audyssey sets the crossover points so low if the main reason for Audyssey is to setup a receiver for multichannel movie sounds.

 

[fuzz092888]

Interesting. With that 120hz thing in mind, I'll keep the crossovers in Audyssey at the 60hz (front mains) and 80hz (surrounds) as they are for over 90% of my listening, which is 2.1 music. If I pop a DVD or BluRay disk in, I can go easily into settings and put it at 120hz, which I know my sub handles perfectly fine.

No, this is not what he means. There is a separate LFE setting that is separate from the crossovers. The LFE setting you set as high as it will go. Don't change your crossovers once you have them set.

I do like hearing the lower notes my mains can do to be coming out of them. Or am I deluding myself?

Preventing your mains from reproducing the lowest octaves can help keep the midrange clean and clear at spirited levels. This is important because that's where the majority of your musical content is coming from. At lower levels you have have your mains play full range. However, you may not get as flat a frequency response down into the lower octaves without the use of a sub. For instance, your mains have a -4db point of 46Hz. With a sub, you can extend that -3 point to 20Hz or possibly even lower.

So potentially, without a sub, you're losing some of the best frequencies for that chest thump and other lower frequency sounds. Plus, your mains won't be able to reproduce with as much authority as a subwoofer.

This makes me wonder why Audyssey sets the crossover points so low if the main reason for Audyssey is to setup a receiver for multichannel movie sounds.

Because the whole point of lossless audio and discrete channels is to remove the lowest frequency content from the main and surround speakers so that they could be reproduced with the appropriate SPL's. Which is why the LFE is a discrete channel to the subwoofer and has nothing to do with the crossover. Only the LFE channel low pass setting adjusts this.

 

[KenM10759]

Given what this quality oriented test shows for my speakers, I'm going to try setting the cutoff at 100hz and see how it sounds.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=793:nrc-measurements-kef-r500&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements

 

[fuzz092888]

Given what this quality oriented test shows for my speakers, I'm going to try setting the cutoff at 100hz and see how it sounds.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=793:nrc-measurements-kef-r500&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements

The crossover? Doesn't seem like a bad idea based on those measurements. Just be careful in case you are able to too easily locate the sub.