What is special about horn loaded drivers?

[Swerd]

I think we may have lost the OP, Defcon. Our responses ought to teach him not to ask such questions.

 

[TLS Guy]

Swerd, in answer to #2, it depends on the room and intended goals. I'll post this link again. I'm with Bill Waslo in his suspicions that few that have heard controlled directivity speakers have heard them implemented properly. (Pardon the seeming crudity of the piece, but it's founded on quite a bit of actual research over the years from the likes of JBL/Harmon, Earl Geddes, etc.)

I have a lot of respect for Bill Waslo, but he is wrong about this. One problem is that designers od audio equipment don't interact with instrument makers, especially pipe organ builders.

This is nonsense because a violin is known to be the most perfect omnidirectional device in the audio world. I guess you could also include the triangle, and such.

Now you NEVER have trouble localizing the string positions of a string quarter in any hall. You can always localize all the string sections of an orchestra with your eyes closed. However that localization is always in context with the overall wash of sound. Now there are a number of speakers that over localize. Those are usually the ones with a poor dispersion pattern and thin in the tenor register.

Swerd is on the right track about all of this. We do not understand a lot of the psycho acoustics of all of this, which makes it so difficult and controversial. Unfortunately I think there are a lot of unkown, unknowns. In situations like this you have to be guided by your experience of what you have noted works and what does not work.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think we may have lost the OP, Defcon. Our responses ought to teach him not to ask such questions.

True, but this has been a very good discussion. I led off with a provocative post on purpose.

These are the discussions we should have and are far more useful than those of the how much junk can I buy for $X variety!

 

[Swerd]

I just wanted to add an aspect that comes with the efficiency, in addition to playing loudly, it also makes for a very dynamic speaker. In my experience, this type of design provides a fast transient or good impact on the attack of sudden sounds.

I do believe you can get equivalent attacks out of a more traditional driver, but a $300 speaker with horn hits harder than a traditional $300 speaker.

Every horn I have ever heard in a residential setting colors the sound, but I have never heard any of the premium speakers with horns.

I agree with Kurt's point about horns coloring the sound.

That would include speakers made by Geddlee, the Abbey, specifically made to meet those buyers of the controlled dispersion persuasion. Because they suffered from prominent horn coloration, I can't imagine using them under any circumstances.

 

[TLS Guy]

There are always exceptions to every rule, but I think the general consensus is that higher efficiency speakers (horns, CD, Pro-style speakers) are great for loudness and dynamics, but may not be so great for accuracy (speaker measurements).

Personally, I use horn/CD/pro speakers for outdoor events and karaoke.

But some people love to use these speakers for everything. There is no right or wrong. Everyone is different.

True, but a I guarantee, that no one will listen through the Ring Cycle on one of these directivity horn speakers.

 

[Steve81]

Don't quote theories that disagree with my theories .

What can I say, in an imperfect world, there can be no perfect solution. Sometimes more than one solution works quite well. After Dennis completed my custom job, which features a UniQ driver and 7" Seas woofer, I had some time to compare them with a pair of Philharmonitors he had laying around. To my ear and in his living room, they sounded damn near identical, despite the fact that one is a 3-way controlled dispersion design and the other a wide dispersion 2-way bookshelf. Perhaps this suggests I'm not much of an audiophile (not that I ever claimed to be), or perhaps there is simply more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Swerd]

True, but this has been a very good discussion.

I have to agree .

I led off with a provocative post on purpose.

That would be so unlike you !

 

[Swerd]

What can I say, in an imperfect world, there can be no perfect solution. Sometimes more than one solution works quite well. After Dennis completed my custom job, which features a UniQ driver and 7" Seas woofer, I had some time to compare them with a pair of Philharmonitors he had laying around. To my ear and in his living room, they sounded damn near identical, despite the fact that one is a 3-way controlled dispersion design and the other a wide dispersion 2-way bookshelf. Perhaps this suggests I'm not much of an audiophile (not that I ever claimed to be), or perhaps there is simply more than one way to skin a cat.

Or it demonstrates that Dennis is good enough to make all speakers, for which he designs crossovers, sound similar.

 

[ski2xblack]

This is nonsense because a violin is known to be the most perfect omnidirectional device in the audio world. I guess you could also include the triangle, and such.

We do not understand a lot of the psycho acoustics of all of this, which makes it so difficult and controversial. Unfortunately I think there are a lot of unkown, unknowns. In situations like this you have to be guided by your experience of what you have noted works and what does not work.

This isn't about a musical production, of how violins or other instruments radiate in space. This is about audio a RE-production, one based on a recording of an event, not actual instruments, and one that ultimately relies heavily on audio illusions to paint a compelling picture in the mind's eye.

Doc, take one of your own good captures of a live performance, using a minimal two mic recording rig, and play it back via decent horns set up in the manner Bill suggests, and you'll be able to place the violins and triangles (and whatever else) rather precisely in the sound stage.

 

[shadyJ]

I have encountered many audiophools at audio shows who seem to have swallowed the Kool Aid on this subject. The horn speakers they adore, have all (with one exception) sounded awful to me. That exception was a Klipsch La Scalla clone, the name of which I forget. It costs over $17,000 and I am certain I won't be buying it.

As far as I understand things, an important feature of loud speakers is that they disperse sound as widely as possible in a room.

The speakers yo are referring to sound like the Volti Vittorias. Excellent speakers, I have heard them as well.

As far as controlled dispersion, it seems to me what matters is what occurs at the listening position, not what happens at places where there are no listeners. Unless you really want accuracy as you wonder around the room, and if that is the case, you will need a very special set of omnipolars. Horn-loaded speakers can deliver a flat frequency response at the listening position; I am not sure what else there is to discuss? Who cares if a stringed instrument is omnidirectional (and this is discussed in Floyd Toole's book) as long as you hear whatever the mic hears. I have heard the Danley Synergies both in a home theater and in an Imax theater, and they sounded great both times. Horns are given a bad name by crude speakers like Cerwin Vegas and cheapo Peaveys, but then there is magnificent horn-loaded speakers like the JBL M2s. Totally flat response, absolute precision. A properly setup pair of horn speakers can sound wonderful (see Bill Waslo's paper).

 

[TLS Guy]

What can I say, in an imperfect world, there can be no perfect solution. Sometimes more than one solution works quite well. After Dennis completed my custom job, which features a UniQ driver and 7" Seas woofer, I had some time to compare them with a pair of Philharmonitors he had laying around. To my ear and in his living room, they sounded damn near identical, despite the fact that one is a 3-way controlled dispersion design and the other a wide dispersion 2-way bookshelf. Perhaps this suggests I'm not much of an audiophile (not that I ever claimed to be), or perhaps there is simply more than one way to skin a cat.

That is the mark of a good and seasoned designer. You know you are at that point when speakers with widely different driver complement and crossover sound far far more similar than different.

I'm often naughty on my jaunts to the Hi-Fi dealers. As they switch speakers even different speakers from the same manufacturer have widely different tonal balance.

I then ask the salesman to tell me which speaker is the right one!

 

[ski2xblack]

Or it demonstrates that Dennis is good enough to make all speakers, for which he designs crossovers, sound similar.

Dennis worked with the SEOS dudes, and never came up with what he considered satisfactory sound, fwiw. That says quite a bit. (I'm a bit bummed, as I've been tempted to build some Tempests, but his PMs on the topic have me holding back.)

 

[TLS Guy]

This isn't about a musical production, of how violins or other instruments radiate in space. This is about audio a RE-production, one based on a recording of an event, not actual instruments, and one that ultimately relies heavily on audio illusions to paint a compelling picture in the mind's eye.

Doc, take one of your own good captures of a live performance, using a minimal two mic recording rig, and play it back via decent horns set up in the manner Bill suggests, and you'll be able to place the violins and triangles (and whatever else) rather precisely in the sound stage.

That's not the point. I was just pointing out that controlled directivity is obviously not essential for localization.

The next issue is that localization is only one of a myriad of attributes a good speaker has to have.

I could build you a speaker that had fantastic localization and was awful!

I will tell you one thing though, that my intensity stereo recordings localize very well. Far better the ubiquitous phase difference techniques. I used a sound field microphone, and almost always had it wide open to the back as well. The rear sound is 180 degrees out of phase with the front, they way I did it. Now I have all very good speakers in my 7.1 rig.

When I play those recordings in Dolby PL 2x then the audience applause is almost 100% from the surround and back speakers, and very little from the fronts. The preservation of the original venue is uncanny. The more ambient the space the more realistic the effect.

 

[Swerd]

The speakers yo are referring to sound like the Volti Vittorias. Excellent speakers, I have heard them as well.

Thank you. I couldn't conjure up that name. I heard them in a tiny hotel room. They sounded good to me because they lacked that horn sound. The room was small enough so the only worry I had about room boundaries was how long can I stand to be in this tiny room.

As far as controlled dispersion, it seems to me what matters is what occurs at the listening position, not what happens at places where there are no listeners. Unless you really want accuracy as you wonder around the room, and if that is the case, you will need a very special set of omnipolars. Horn-loaded speakers can deliver a flat frequency response at the listening position; I am not sure what else there is to discuss? Who cares if a stringed instrument is omnidirectional (and this is discussed in Floyd Toole's book) as long as you hear whatever the mic hears. I have heard the Danley Synergies both in a home theater and in an Imax theater, and they sounded great both times. Horns are given a bad name by crude speakers like Cerwin Vegas and cheapo Peaveys, but then there is magnificent horn-loaded speakers like the JBL M2s. Totally flat response, absolute precision. A properly setup pair of horn speakers can sound wonderful (see Bill Waslo's paper).

I'll give your opinion respect simply because you present it reasonably, and I don't presume to KNOW THE TRUE ANSWER. But I also believe we don't understand enough about sound propagation and it's interpretation by human brains to be clear about how to solve these problems.

Maybe Floyd Toole can tell us WWFD?

 

[Swerd]

Dennis worked with the SEOS dudes, and never came up with what he considered satisfactory sound, fwiw.

The main reason is that he though the sound quality was severely lacking. He has been asked more than once to perform miracles with high-sensitivity speakers, and he always comes to the conclusion that they sound poor.

The Gedlee Abbey I once heard was at his house. I had dropped by for a visit, and he played them just to see what my response was. It took me about 3 seconds to say it sounded like someone playing an instrument in a public bathroom with tile floors and walls.

FWIW, Dennis is a major proponent of speakers with wide (not limited) dispersion. It is one of his guiding principles, and he would be among the first to discard any principle if it conflicted with his practical experience.

 

[Steve81]

Maybe Floyd Toole can tell us WWFD?

Well, we do have some insights on WWFD:
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/advice-audio-insider

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

True, but a I guarantee, that no one will listen through the Ring Cycle on one of these directivity horn speakers.

I have not heard the "Ring Cycle". I assume it has plenty of high frequency sound?

If that's the case, I will agree.

 

[Swerd]

True, but a I guarantee, that no one will listen through the Ring Cycle on one of these directivity horn speakers.

This begs for illustration. I couldn't find one of a fat lady (suitably attired) singing with a megaphone, but I urge you to use your imagination and combine these two.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The main reason is that he though the sound quality was severely lacking. He has been asked more than once to perform miracles with high-sensitivity speakers, and he always comes to the conclusion that they sound poor.

The Gedlee Abbey I once heard was at his house. I had dropped by for a visit, and he played them just to see what my response was. It took me about 3 seconds to say it sounded like someone playing an instrument in a public bathroom with tile floors and walls.

Public bathroom ?

Well, I am glad I didn't buy the Gedlee speakers back when I was on a speaker buying spree.

 

[shadyJ]

Thank you. I couldn't conjer up that name. I heard them in a tiny hotel room. They sounded good to me because they lacked that horn sound. The room was small enough so the only worry I had about room boundaries was how long can I stand to be in this tiny room.
I'll give your opinion respect simply because you present it reasonably, and I don't presume to KNOW THE TRUE ANSWER. But I also believe we don't understand enough about sound propagation and it's interpretation by human brains to be clear about how to solve these problems.

Maybe Floyd Toole can tell us WWFD?

There are a lot of anecdotes flying around here about some experience with X speaker, but what we need to settle this is SCIENCIES! A blind comparison is in order. If all you golden ears can distinguish between a horn-loaded speaker and a non-horned speaker, both of which have a very good and similar response, that will settle this argument.

As for the Ring Cycle, Wagner would most definitely have been a horn guy!