How do you read AV grades?

[killdozzer]

@Swerd - wow, what can I say... A check is in order indeed!

This has been very helpful. Those are the exact points I'm looking for. I'm about to jump a class or two in equipment quality so I'll be swimming in uncharted waters and certain things I try to avoid. One of those being the exact thing of 'attractive' 'hookey' speaker features of those "exaggerated bass or bright treble". Because this is the problem you realize somewhere down the line and then I would feel cheated.

OK, I'll definitely look into this 'flat frequency response', read about it a little bit, try to find specs or data sheets on some of the speakers being sold here and try to listen to them. You got me interested.

So, I see even you heard some good things about KEF LS50? Everyone's going crazy over them.

Thank you very much and read you around.
killdozzer

 

[killdozzer]

Where are you located what which brands to you have available?

Usually I don't like saying where I live so let's keep it to ourselves :-D :-D I live in Zagreb, capital of Croatia. What is available (and, more importantly, affordable but without stating the exact model, it would take me hours): very few of those "direct-sold" brands you all talk about, and the rest are:
PSB, Scansonic, Quad Classic, Tangent, KEF, Klipsch, Dynaudio, DALI, QAcoustics, Triangle, Focal, Audio Pro, (Croatian made but too expensive) Audio Epilog, Boston Acoustics, B&W, Mordaunt-Short, Tannoy, Monitor Audio, PMC, JBL, Wharfdale, Acoustic Energy...

Not to overdo it... I named brands that have bookshelves in my price range (not all of them but they do have some models I could buy). I guess I could muster up 800$ for a pair of bookshelves.

The music I listen the least is classical, however I've been known to play a Mendelssohn or two. I go as acoustic as 16 horsepower or Jose Gonzalez, as vocal as Tracy Chapman, London Grammar or Florence and as 'bassy' as Kenton Slash Demon, Ben Khan or Depeche Mode and Kendrick Lamar.

killdozzer

 

[Steve81]

Not to overdo it... I named brands that have bookshelves in my price range (not all of them but they do have some models I could buy). I guess I could muster up 800$ for a pair of bookshelves.

Any plans to use a subwoofer with your prospective speakers, or will you be running them full range?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Usually I don't like saying where I live so let's keep it to ourselves :-D :-D I live in Zagreb, capital of Croatia. What is available (and, more importantly, affordable but without stating the exact model, it would take me hours): very few of those "direct-sold" brands you all talk about, and the rest are:
PSB, Scansonic, Quad Classic, Tangent, KEF, Klipsch, Dynaudio, DALI, QAcoustics, Triangle, Focal, Audio Pro, (Croatian made but too expensive) Audio Epilog, Boston Acoustics, B&W, Mordaunt-Short, Tannoy, Monitor Audio, PMC, JBL, Wharfdale, Acoustic Energy...

Not to overdo it... I named brands that have bookshelves in my price range (not all of them but they do have some models I could buy). I guess I could muster up 800$ for a pair of bookshelves.

The music I listen the least is classical, however I've been known to play a Mendelssohn or two. I go as acoustic as 16 horsepower or Jose Gonzalez, as vocal as Tracy Chapman, London Grammar or Florence and as 'bassy' as Kenton Slash Demon, Ben Khan or Depeche Mode and Kendrick Lamar.

killdozzer

If I were OP and these are only speakers brands available, I'd start looking (or rather listening) closely at Wharfdale, PSB, MS, Tannoy brands. Focal, KEF, Quad, Dali, PMC would also be solid, but in higher price point...
Again, I expect Wharfdale to provide best value/quality

 

[killdozzer]

Any plans to use a subwoofer with your prospective speakers, or will you be running them full range?

Sub-woofer is coming, perhaps a bit later. I plan to go second hand with sub. I am looking for ones that have adjustable crossover freq as not all have this. I saw Paradigm, Q Acoustics and Audio Research that I could afford second hand.

 

[Swerd]

OK, I'll definitely look into this 'flat frequency response', read about it a little bit, try to find specs or data sheets on some of the speakers being sold here and try to listen to them. You got me interested.

So, I see even you heard some good things about KEF LS50? Everyone's going crazy over them.

killdozzer

I'm glad to know I touched on things that interest you. Good luck with your speaker search.

I've heard the KEF LS50 speakers and I like them. In the USA they sell for $1500/pair, which I think is expensive. If you could find them for less, about $1200 (US) they would be an excellent buy.

If you are interested, read this short web page. http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=135
It introduces you to the concept of flat frequency response and how a crossover can be designed to achieve that. It also shows a number of examples of frequency response curves that result in poor sound.

You can read more topics important to speaker design here.
http://www.salksound.com/wp/?cat=5

We have another well liked regular around here who originally came from Croatia. Your written English is excellent, and you had me believing you are American . If I had known earlier that you were not in the US or Canada, I would not have mentioned those Internet Direct speaker makers. I don't know if they ship to Croatia.

For what its worth, all of those ID speaker makers I mentioned make use of RAAL ribbon tweeters made in Serbia . So they are familiar with that part of the world. I do appreciate that Zagreb and Belgrade are separated by a wide political and cultural gulf, even if they are not far apart in kilometers.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I do appreciate that Zagreb and Belgrade are separated by a wide political and cultural gulf, even if they are not far apart in kilometers.

393km according to Google Maps - or 244 miles - about 4 hours drive or short 1h flight.

 

[Steve81]

I've heard the KEF LS50 speakers and I like them. In the USA they sell for $1500/pair, which I think is expensive. If you could find them for less, about $1200 (US) they would be an excellent buy.

Definitely a good speaker in my book, but I'm guessing out of his price range. KEF does have the less costly Q100 (retail $550), which utilizes a simpler crossover and cheaper cabinetry. In my experience, the overall performance is still quite good, but the low end is lacking both in terms of quality and quantity. That said, integrated with a capable sub, it could be a part of a very good sounding system. Personally I wouldn't bother with the rest of the Q lineup.

 

[shadyJ]

The LS50 is just a well-made, good speaker. Very accurate. Another speaker that is also excellent that might be available in your part of the world is the Wharfedale Jades. The Polk LSi series is good as well. They all cost about the same here, $1500, but I don't know what they go for over there. They have all been measured, and they all measure very well. I would want subwoofers with whatever you get.

 

[killdozzer]

We have another well liked regular around here who originally came from Croatia. Your written English is excellent, and you had me believing you are American . If I had known earlier that you were not in the US or Canada, I would not have mentioned those Internet Direct speaker makers. I don't know if they ship to Croatia.

Well... Thanks! I don't whether to take this as a compliment. (I'm kidding, of course)

For what its worth, all of those ID speaker makers I mentioned make use of RAAL ribbon tweeters made in Serbia . So they are familiar with that part of the world. I do appreciate that Zagreb and Belgrade are separated by a wide political and cultural gulf, even if they are not far apart in kilometers.

It is more of a political divide, so I don't allow it. I'm still OK with all the nations around me; Italians - great, Slovenians - great, Hungarian - great, Bosnian - great and funny as hell. It's all fine. Thanks for the concern. I never knew Serbians had such a Hi Fi product. I'm glad. I've heard for RAAL only by name, so these are the ribbon ones? I have seen Martin Logan uses ribbon, ELAC and some studio monitors, QUAD as well (which is supposed to be some famous British brand, I thought you all knew about them).

Thanks for the read! I'll savour those. I guess I'll read them in the morning with my coffee. However, I see a couple of recommendations going for 1500$ speakers, but what I meant was I could muster up 800$ for a pair. But, to tell you the truth, I was thinking about stretching to get the KEF LS50. I never heard one bad thing about them. I would still get a sub over time though.

I remember Seth=L saying you shouldn't skimp on your speakers. I see a lot of you guys agree and perhaps I'll buy the LS50 and start with a very fundamental amplifier like Cambridge Audio Azur351a (I firmly decided my amp should be an Amp/DAC combo with an USB going directly to a decent converter so I could play my digital files more or less decently).

Thanks again
killdozzer

 

[killdozzer]

Any plans to use a subwoofer with your prospective speakers, or will you be running them full range?

Yes! A sub, yes. I started the thread about 2.1 vs. towers asking about the sound quality alone. I remember most of you saying that, first of all, 2.1 allows you to get a more than a decent sound for far less money. But then that even at the top end towers have a hard time beating the 2.1 set up. So you got me, I'm about to buy stand mounts and later on find myself a decent second hand sub.

 

[killdozzer]

The LS50 is just a well-made, good speaker. Very accurate. Another speaker that is also excellent that might be available in your part of the world is the Wharfedale Jades. The Polk LSi series is good as well. They all cost about the same here, $1500, but I don't know what they go for over there. They have all been measured, and they all measure very well. I would want subwoofers with whatever you get.

I guess you mean Jade1? If so, they are available here at a slightly lower price, approx. 1200$. I can't find Polk anywhere, but LS50's are also slightly cheaper - 1100$.

killdozzer

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I guess you mean Jade1? If so, they are available here at a slightly lower price, approx. 1200$. I can't find Polk anywhere, but LS50's are also slightly cheaper - 1100$.

killdozzer

Wharfdale has other cheaper models, besides Jade1. I have heard of Quad as brand, but they are not known much outside of UK. Remember this forums is mostly US based.
@TLS Guy is deeply familiar with Quad and other british brands more than most AH members.

 

[Swerd]

I never knew Serbians had such a Hi Fi product. I'm glad. I've heard for RAAL only by name, so these are the ribbon ones?

RAAL makes among the best ribbon tweeters in the world. http://www.raalribbon.com/aboutus.htm

The designer of Philharmonic Audio and Salk Speakers favors them over all other ribbon tweeters now available. They also are used by Ascend Audio, and others in the USA.

There is some very good competition, mainly from China. LCY and Aurum Cantus are names of good ribbon tweeters I am familiar with.

 

[killdozzer]

If you are interested, read this short web page. http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=135
It introduces you to the concept of flat frequency response and how a crossover can be designed to achieve that. It also shows a number of examples of frequency response curves that result in poor sound.

Damn, this was a hard read! (I signed off yesterday because it was getting late in my part of the world.)

I'll have to read this again. Even then, probably, I won't understand it and I can't seem to find the practical use for this knowledge (my own practical knowledge, I can't get into a store and dismantle a speaker to see whether it has “Linkwitz-Riley” crossover). It just makes me more determent to seek advice when climbing the price range of equipment. I think if you're use to listen to cheap equipment, even a "3-star" hi-fi will seem to sound great. Not just that, but you could even end up choosing something worse because it reminds you of what you're use to. But I believe sometimes you should brake up with habits, especially if it's bad habits and accustom yourself to something completely different if it's better (even if you're yet to discover it's better). That's the only way. Get a good rating equipment, make room for some good advice from people who can detect and understand evident and significant faults of certain equipment and make a step forward. I hate running in my own tight circles.

I mentioned this once already; when I first heard Sonus Faber Olympica II I thought only trough means of magic can a device sound this ravishing. And then I thought; well, what the hell do I know? I don't spend my time listening to all Harbeth, Wilson-Benesch, Focal Utopia's and KEF Blades. Maybe the sound could even be better for the same price (and Souns Faber are indeed pricey).

I still haven't read the other article. I will as soon as I have some time.

killdozzer

 

[killdozzer]

@Swerd How would you grade these measures:
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/loudspeakers/65-reviews/133-quad-11l2.html

They describe themselves as pretty neutral with a few hints of this and that.

 

[Swerd]

I just read the review of the Quad 11L2. Quad is a well respected British speaker name, but I have never hear any Quad speaker, so I am not familiar with the Quad "sound". Apparently, from what the review says,

"Their tonal balance was everything Quad are known for: smooth, not immediately challenging but quietly impressive. Indeed, the Quads initially sounded warm in balance, likely due to a suppressed 3-10 kHz region, but they are very detailed all the same and were able to deliver vocals with almost the same degree of resolution and naturalness as the Ushers…"​

That sounds like an attractive description to me. Overall, there does appear to be a bit less loudness above 2 kHz, that could create a sense of warmth.

The woofer is small, 125 mm, or just below 5 inches. From the frequency response (FR) curve shows no sign of exaggerated bass, and the bass is down by 3 dB at roughly 70-80 Hz. I might disagree with the reviewers assessment of "plentiful bass", but perhaps by British tastes it is plentiful.

The woofer is made from woven Kevlar fiber, a material notorious for ugly sounding resonance at higher frequencies (as in most B&W speakers). But I see no sign of that trouble in this FR curve. I hope Quad used a crossover frequency to the tweeter of about 2-2.5 kHz, which would avoid the problem. (B&W insists on a 4 kHz crossover frequency that allows the Kevlar woofer's resonance to be easily heard.)

Overall, the FR curve looks good to me. The red trace, showing the tuned port's response shows a large peak at about 1 kHz. I believe this is caused by air turbulence coming from the port's opening. The photo of the speaker shows no port on the front, so it probably is on the back of the cabinet. If so, you probably won't hear that noise.

I see nothing else in the FR curve that might make me think this speaker sounds poor.

I do believe that a sensitivity rating of 86-87 dB is optimistic. For a speaker this small, I would expect to it more like 84-85 dB. However this is not a problem.

The price is £250, or $355 (US) seems very low. Is that for a pair, or for each speaker?

 

[killdozzer]

Usually they go for 565$/pair here in my parts. Now you can get them for 340$ a pair. But this is a sale.

I went there. Everything is sold but one last pair of demo speakers. Now I'm not sure again. Don't want to risk it.

killdozzer

 

[Swerd]

Usually they go for 565$/pair here in my parts. Now you can get them for 340$ a pair. But this is a sale.

I went there. Everything is sold but one last pair of demo speakers. Now I'm not sure again. Don't want to risk it.

Did you listen to the demo speakers? What did you think of them?

 

[killdozzer]

Sorry for the delay, I had some work to do.

I didn't have the chance to hear them. I had very little time and wanted to check whether they still have this model, but I had to go at once.

To be quite honest the guy started to annoy me and I wasn't in the mood. He was 'teaching' me how speakers are irrelevant and kept asking me why I insist on those speakers when I can buy just about any and they will all sound good on a good amplifier. "And after the amp you have the cables." I just didn't have the stomach.

Although I didn't really need him, because I already knew what I came for, I could have bought my QUAD's and go home, but it all, sort of, build up and accumulated; he wasn't going to lower the price any further on account of speakers being on the shelf, he was pushy and annoying trying to sell me the NAD D3020 and saying any speakers will sound great on that amp. And the finish of the QUAD 11L2 was one the ugliest I've seen in a long time.

Still, they are available (and won't go anywhere, IMO, since he's not going to take into account the fact that he doesn't even have the original packaging for the speakers that spent quite some time in the listening room). If I change my mind I can always go over there and hear them. For now I want to ease up a bit and not rush into anything.

Meanwhile, TLS Guy (as BoredSysAdmin said he knows the brand) gave me some good and reliable info on the 11L2 speakers - not saying they're the best ever but that they are really decent and that they rarely disappoint someone who knows what to expect form the volume.

I would have a hard time explaining a finish this 'pimpy' to anyone who knows me (of course this is not even one of the main reasons):