How do you read AV grades?

[herbu]

send a check made out to the Swerd Benevolent Speaker Upgrade Fund

Or the Swerd Utopian Capricious Kinetic Esoteric Repository.

 

[herbu]

He was 'teaching' me how speakers are irrelevant... they will all sound good on a good amplifier. "And after the amp you have the cables." I just didn't have the stomach.

killdozer,
You are one smart "intern"! Good for you!!!

 

[killdozzer]

Well, thanks!

I'm going step by step trying to eliminate 'money devouring' myths and hone in on the important stuff. Listening room in my apartment is not that good, but that is not stopping me from pursuing good price/value speakers and an amp that, at least, deals with some basic problems like square frequency, dumping, enough power to sustain reproduction of demanding frequencies by a speaker and so on. I have tones of books waiting to be placed on shelves and I know they are OK for sound absorption.

While we're on the subject of what really matters, for some reason I don't think I should give huge amounts of money for a DAC, and I'm always on a look out for an Amp/DAC combo. I think if there's one thing out there that could be 'hybrid' it could be a DAC placed inside of an amp. For me, a more expensive solution would have a DAC/preamp combo and then a clean power amp.

I have to tell you the truth; I still don't know what a preamp does. I see it as a "source-switching" station. Something similar to a mixer, but instead of mixing something together by employing few channels, preamp separates the channel from a source to a power amp. I know I might have some further reading on this in front of me. Perhaps what I just wrote is plain wrong.

But I don't worry myself with that because I'm not in the market for an preamp/amp. So let's not waste any energy there.

The same guy told me I could get a tube preamp for a transistor amp, and I just thought; that's it, I'm going home.

One thing I know is wrong about me though is that my eyes are not less important to me than my ears. Once I narrow down the choice of equipment I consider good enough, the winner and the final choice has to be a looker. I won't back up on quality, but among two or three sets that are equal in performance, it will be the looker.

Thanks for your comments, hope to read you around.
(I also hope you were just messing with Swerd, he's been really helpful)

killdozzer

 

[Swerd]

It was good that you walked out on that dealer you described. My guess is he wouldn't make enough profit by selling those Quad speakers alone, so he wanted to sell you some overpriced electronic gear and cables that you don't need. Your instincts are good.

Be patient, there are other speakers out there. Take your time and listen to these speakers. You'll gradually develop a sense of what you like and what speaker brands deliver that. You'll also develop a sense of what prices dealers ask for and what how low they will go to actually sell them.

 

[Alex2507]

(I also hope you were just messing with Swerd, he's been really helpful)

That's how it starts. Then you find yourself in his house ... and maybe his bed. Run.

 

[Swerd]

That's how it starts. Then you find yourself in his house ... and maybe his bed. Run.

The restraining order you signed specifically forbids mentioning the penguin, rollerskates, nun, wet suit, or hand cuffs in public. That includes indirect statements that talk around the subject. I thought you understood that .

 

[Alex2507]

Mustache rides ...

 

[herbu]

(I also hope you were just messing with Swerd, he's been really helpful)

"Messing with Swerd"?
"He's been really helpful"?

killdozzer, I can assure you neither of these things has ever happened, nor will they ever happen.

Just kidding...

 

[Alex2507]

I have to tell you the truth; I still don't know what a preamp does. I see it as a "source-switching" station. Something similar to a mixer, but instead of mixing something together by employing few channels, preamp separates the channel from a source to a power amp. I know I might have some further reading on this in front of me. Perhaps what I just wrote is plain wrong.

The pre-amp also handles the volume. An integrated amp is an amp and pre-amp. A receiver is an integrated amp plus a radio tuner.

Swerd just pointed out to me that you're in Zagreb. I'm Cro. Be that as it may, I would sniff out designs using RAAL tweeters on the used market. Did you ever provide a budget number? That really helps narrow the discussion but for me the biggest performance/dollar magic happens when you tap the used market. Once people discard the old boxes and can't ship, the pool of buyers seriously dries up. Then, like a vulture ... you swoop in for the easy pickings.

Speakers aren't really a marriage. Who could afford all the divorces? I skimmed the thread and skipped everything Herbu wrote but didn't see if you mentioned if you wanted floorstanders or bookshelves.

Something tells me there has to be some sort of club for audio nuts using RAAL tweeters if not in Zagreb, then in Ljubljana. That's close, right?

The way listener preference works is that about 75% of us prefer a similar response curve in a speaker. You said you had plans for a sub so now you could focus on a bookshelf. If you live in an apartment suddenly you don't really need a speaker that can handle a huge amount of power. However if you have 3 grand for bookshelves, it's an entirely different discussion. So, how much you got?

Edit: I just saw the $800 for bookshelves post. That's a healthy number. To me it translates to a $1200 playing field but on the used market and maybe $1600 in parts from the DIY sector. Is that enough for RAAL tweets and Acuton mids? I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

 

[herbu]

I skimmed the thread and skipped everything Herbu wrote

Not everyone appreciates my sense of humor.

 

[killdozzer]

@Alex2507 Thank you for your help.

I guess the official language of the forums is English so I'll just stick to it. Judging by your questions I have a feeling you don't live here anymore. I hope you're happy wherever you live at the moment, Croatia is a mess right now.

I'm definitely not up for DIY, I could go for a second hand market but I would need persuading, I don't really trust people.

Originally I was thinking about buying a DAC/amp combo and a pair of good speakers for 1100$. After a while I would get a sub. But, since I'm in no rush I might decide to invest everything in speakers and wait for the amp or even get a second hand, cheap DAC/amp while I gather some money again.

What made me second guess myself is the fact that I found a pair of new ATC SCM 7's - these get the highest marks from even the toughest critics out there (ATC speakers in general). But they're still out of my reach. So i still have some thinking to do.

I'm making a fresh start, buying everything from scratch. I have to buy an amp and speakers. I would invest most of my money in speakers, more precisely FL and FR would get the most. I'm going for a stereo sound system that would end up as 2.1 (also an advice I got here). So, step by step (and in this order) I have to buy speakers, an amp and a sub.

I want my FL and FR to really be good. Amp should sport a DAC and for starters it should just be decent. I don't think I should throw money on a DAC, but I do have a large digital archive and I want it to sound good. I see more and more brands giving into this philosophy and I don't think it should be a problem. (among cheaper brands with DAC I have: Rotel, Marantz, Denon, Music Hall, Parasound Z, Cambridge Audio, NAD etc).

Whatever I decide to buy it'll just sit there for some time, though, because I don't have all the money at once. But this is less important for me. I am patient.

This is why I could even go for the amp first, it wouldn't change a lot, it would still sit there. If I go for the speakers first, the amp will be the one that can simply 'just' play. Next step the sub, which I wouldn't mind buying second hand. I know some of the members here would have me imprisoned merely for saying this, but I don't even think I should pay a large amount for the sub because all I expect from it is to fill the lowest frequencies. I'm not looking for a performer. All I ask is for the sub to have a button for the crossover frequency - I say this because I saw a lot of them don't.

After I get good speakers, working DAC/amp and a sub, I'm going back to the amp. Since I think of getting the most basic one at first, I'll replace it with a solid one and I'm done.

Since I'm a kind of a guy who forgets about equipment after a while and focuses on content, this would keep me happy for a looong long time.

But I don't want to go through the process a couple of times I don't really like the shopping itself.

killdozzer

EDIT: Music Hall is not actually cheap, I was thinking about Musical Fidelity but wrote Music Hall as I was just visiting their web.

 

[Alex2507]

Not everyone appreciates my sense of humor.

I was checking to see if I had your attention. Now I don't know what to do with it.

KD, I've been in America and Canada since the 1970. I understand your concerns about buying used from ... one of us. Seriously. I just think that people interested in audio generally take care of their gear and don't want to waste their time by asking for prices they can't get and misrepresenting the condition of the equipment when it's the first thing you look at when you show up to buy. I was just saying to check it out.

Behringer speakers might be available to you. You might be able to get away with an active model instead of the passive ones for your DAC needs. I'm not sure about that though. There is a 2030 and a 2031. I heard the 2030p for about a month and liked them but they can't go very loud or low. What they can do however, they do very well. Check those out if you can.

There's another powered or maybe active monitor out there called a KRK Rokit which sounds pretty good too.

 

[herbu]

I was checking to see if I had your attention. Now I don't know what to do with it.

Ahhhh! Gave me a taste of my own medicine, huh? And I'll say quite effectively.

killdozzer,
I enjoy using humor and sarcasm, usually without the emoticons, ), , , etc), that let people know I'm just kidding. It means sometimes they don't know if I'm kidding or not.

People that know me understand that most the time I'm just joking, and when I'm serious there is no doubt. A good example is my post about Swerd. He is one of the most knowledgeable and helpful people here. I listen to, and value all his advice. So when I poke him, the regulars here know I'm just kidding.

I have to say Alex poked me pretty good, with no emoticons or indication if he was kidding or not. I wasn't sure. He is another person here who knows a lot more than I, and whose advice I hold in high regard. So I hoped he was just kidding.

Anyway, wanted you to know we're just having fun. You should listen to both Swerd and Alex for real knowledge and advice. I have a little experience and try to help when I can. And we all try to have fun. Hope you find the time to hang around.

 

[Alex2507]

I had no idea that I could be taken seriously. Also my experience with audio isn't exactly like pro grade but I use to pay attention to threads like this one that point to solid performers at lower price points. Clearly Swerd is the audio brainiologist in this group. I actually have his blood in one of my speakers.

 

[herbu]

I had no idea that I could be taken seriously.

As usual, you were right.

 

[killdozzer]

Anyway, wanted you to know we're just having fun.

I was getting that impression.

Behringer speakers might be available to you. You might be able to get away with an active model instead of the passive ones for your DAC needs. I'm not sure about that though. There is a 2030 and a 2031. I heard the 2030p for about a month and liked them but they can't go very loud or low. What they can do however, they do very well. Check those out if you can.

There's another powered or maybe active monitor out there called a KRK Rokit which sounds pretty good too.

I see you took a sharp turn towards monitors. Do you find the system I have my mind set on lacking in some fashion?

I already started the thread on monitors and got my answer rather quickly. Once you find what you need the price is pretty much the same and you have to watch for one more thing; near field, mid field and the last one I don't know how they call it... far field, wide field, long field... I don't know.

In the end, when you have a good monitor that has a good sound imaging in a living room of 22 square meters (237 square feet) you pay a lot and it still looks like a plastic heap of sh* - most of them. I don't see the advantage. And still you need the sub, naturally.

I've also checked, they don't have the USB plug in. This is what I expect from my DAC/amp: I want to bypass the DAC in my lap top and send the digital signal to a more decent DAC to do the job directly via a cable.

CD source is following shortly and then a vinyl library left by my father. So I put a lot of stress on my amp. It has to do both digital and analogue equally decent, but it has to do the work of DAC as well.

killdozzer

 

[Alex2507]

I forgot that you mentioned looks and yep, raw monitors are ... something. My turn towards those monitors addressed the initial question about lower cost audio performance. If you bump the need for an amp you have some money for the sub right away. Room size is a wise consideration for speakers as well. Speaker sensitivity merits more attention in a big room IMO.

I didn't know that you were set on any system in particular. I'm interested to see what you choose for a DAC/amp. My degree of technical advancement is lame but I think I get around all that with an external sound card and a receiver ... plus some amps ... that I don't need.

 

[Swerd]

I had no idea that I could be taken seriously. Also my experience with audio isn't exactly like pro grade but I use to pay attention to threads like this one that point to solid performers at lower price points. Clearly Swerd is the audio brainiologist in this group. I actually have his blood in one of my speakers.

But you now use it as a rear channel speaker for surround sound !

 

[Alex2507]

But you now use it as a rear channel speaker for surround sound !

Don't think it's unappreciated in that capacity. It not only performs better but it looks better than its predecessor. Besides, if the MB27s didn't go on the wall, how would I have gotten to know the OWI tweets? Putting the MB27s in surround duty elevated both the living room system and the spare room (ManTown) system. As truly modest as the equipment really is, it's crazy how good it all sounds.

I just realized that 90% of my gear is used or DIY or used DIY.

 

[KenM10759]

If you could find a pair of KEF LS50 for the Croatian equivalent of $1100 to $1200 I would buy them and spend the next couple of years chasing a DAC/amp combination that could really get the most out of them. Those are speakers known for revealing the weakness in the equipment leading up to them.