New Subwoofer recommendations

[joegator81]

I'm having a hard time finding reviews on the rhythmic L22. If I were to go with a sealed sub, how do you guys "think" it would stack up against the uls? Also, is the vtf3 in sealed mode essentially a uls with more headroom?

 

[theJman]

I'm having a hard time finding reviews on the rhythmic L22. If I were to go with a sealed sub, how do you guys "think" it would stack up against the uls? Also, is the vtf3 in sealed mode essentially a uls with more headroom?

The L22 has just been released, so information about it will be sparse.

It's difficult for anyone to speculate accurately, but they do seem to be targeted at slightly different audiences. If I had to guess though I'd say the ULS can probably dig a bit deeper, while the L22 may have greater output.

The ULS and VTF have a slightly different driver, and the DSP programming isn't the same either, so there would be a difference between them. Whether that would be audible, and not just measurable, I can't say.

 

[joegator81]

Ok JMan, thanks

 

[joegator81]

Here is a floor plan and pics of my space. Any thoughts?

 

[joegator81]

More pics

 

[Auditor55]

More pics

Question, are you finding that single sub enough to pressurize your room?

 

[joegator81]

It's fine for some things like darla tapping on the fish tank in nemo but it really struggled to play clean in the opening scene of dark knight rises. The scene where the bat jet takes off from a dark alley rumbled loudly but it also seemed to struggle somewhat. I rarely get a kick to the chest if you know what I mean but I feel the couch and ottoman vibrate. Dual subs is definitely the way to go but which ones... Hmmmmm.

 

[joegator81]

Ok guys, I'm between dual ULS15mk2 and dual rythmik L22's.

Let's hear your final thoughts, want to pull the trigger ASAP!

 

[KEW]

Take it with a grain of salt, but here are CEA 2010 equavalents from Rythmik for the L22 (post 29 of this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2085770-rythmik-l22-vs-hsu-uls-15-mk2.html

Edit: Data removed do to suspected inaccuracies.

and here are Measurements published by Hsu for the ULS-15 mk2:
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15mk2.html

CEA 2010 Measurements (1 Meter from woofer, Peak):

ULS-15 MK2:

Tone Burst Center Frequency (Hz) Maximum SPL CEA 2010 Rating
16 104.3
20 108.4 112.9
25 112.5
31.5 117.8
40 123.0 125.1
50 125.8
63 126.6
80 126.6
100 126.6

I would have to go with the L22's just because of Rythmik's reputation for tight musical subs. But I doubt you would ever be disappointed with the ULS-15 mk2. They are both "winners".

 

[shadyJ]

Those Rythmik numbers are completely bogus. If you look at how that guy came up with them in this post, it is wild speculation from someone who does not understand CEA-2010 at all. Those are not from Rythmik. From what I have read, Brian Ding who runs Rythmik does not even like CEA-2010. I don't know how the L22 performs, but I doubt very much that it has as large of an advantage as that over the ULS-15 mk2 in CEA-2010, if it has any advantage at all. There are no reliable numbers for the L22 with respect to CEA-2010. My guess is that they are very close in performance. If you go with the L22, make sure you use it in the LFE input mode! I would use the ULS-15 in the EQ2 mode, not EQ1 mode. Both look like great subs.

 

[KEW]

Thanks for catching that, Shady.
Brian Ding definitely goes his own way with his whole approach (business model as well as the servo technology). Happily, he is staying in business and the end result is a competent and competitive product.

 

[shadyJ]

Yeah, Rythmik makes some good subs. If such exacting speaker manufacturers as Soundfield Audio and Salk incorporate Rythmik subs into their speakers, you know Brian is doing something right. I wish Rythmik would send more out for testing though, I don't know why they are so reluctant to do so. The performance measured by Audioholics and Data-bass.com for the FV15HP made that the goto sub in and above its price in a major way.

 

[KEW]

I wish Rythmik would send more out for testing though, I don't know why they are so reluctant to do so. The performance measured by Audioholics and Data-bass.com for the FV15HP made that the goto sub in and above its price in a major way.

Here are some comments Rythmik made about DataBass tests on the AVS forum:
(see post #19988)
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1214550-official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread-667.html#post36229906

Regarding CEA numbers, I think the most important max output data is 20hz which is the number we provide as reference. This is because 20hz is the number in practice determines the max "volume" you can set on your AVR. Once the SPL at 20hz exceed the max output, the limiter is going to kick in and that bring downs the entire frequency band subwoofer plays. 20hz is not really audible. So it needs to a lot of signal strength and that combined. At the same time, subwoofer is normally least efficient at the bottom end of FR. These two factors make the 20hz output more important.

In terms of Data-bass subwoofer testing, we feel the limitation of the test method penalize the subs that extends low and that makes the measurement looks bad. For instance, if a sealed sub is down 10db at 20hz (vs another sealed sub down only 3db at 20hz), the former is going to have better distortion number at 20hz becasue it is down at least 7db more than the other model. That is why I keep joking the best bass is no bass even from measurement point of view. The same is true for impulse response and waterfall plot.

 

[shadyJ]

I see. I can see why he would hold that view, but I don't 100% agree with it. 20 Hz is certainly audible, but obviously not as audible as upper frequencies. Also, in Rythmik's 20 Hz numbers, is there a distortion cap on that? It doesn't say. I don't agree with his ideas about extension vs distortion. CEA-2010 is a measure of distortion vs output. I don't see what extension has to do with anything. If two subs were the same except one is down 7 dB at 20 Hz in CEA-2010, it could only have done so via a limiter. It may exhibit less distortion in its 20 Hz measurement, but, in CEA-2010, a passing grade is a passing grade. Not many people look at the THD of the passing grade, let alone the component harmonics, and Josh Ricci's tests are the only ones that show the distortion measurements anyway.

 

[joegator81]

Dual rythmik L22 order placed!

 

[3db]

Dual rythmik L22 order placed!

Congrats. Remember to show us pics when you get them

 

[joegator81]

Congrats. Remember to show us pics when you get them

Will do, can't wait to get these in my system. I'm going to start out with one in the same spot as my epik to see how it matches up head to head. After that I'll place for both subs. I'm going to setup for music first and then adjust for movies in the avr.

 

[joegator81]

They will be here Monday!

 

[joegator81]

Just when i think i'm out.... Brian emailed me to give him a call after some back and forth messaging. He is concerned that the benefits of the L22 may be lost due to the fact that i would cross over my Salk Songtowers around 45-50hz at the highest for 2 channel stereo (i crossover at 80hz via bass mgmt in my marantz avr for HT). Paraphrasing Brian, the L22's biggest benefit is playing more cleanly cycles above where i would be crossing over. The 15" subs would play more cleanly and with more detail in the lower bass. However, he also mentioned that the L22's will give you 95% of the sound quality of the F and E series 15" subs.
I am going to decide by shipping time tomorrow afternoon. Here are my options:
1. two L22's (against Brian's advice)
2. one L22 for now to see if i like it
3. one F15HP for now
4. two F15HP's (WAF permitting)
5. one F25 (definitely for now, and maybe forever)
6. forget Rythmik and get a couple of Hsu's, but i'm fairly convinced Rythmik may be my dream sub for music

 

[KEW]

Tough call, but in the end, I don't see you regretting any of those options. That is the beauty of being an Audioholic - you are choosing between very good options.
However, I am disappointed that you narrowed it down to 6 options. Surely, no audio decision can be that simple! Let me help you out:
7. one E15HP for now
8. two E15HP's (WAF permitting)

Here's my logic - dimensions are
E15HP - 17"(W) x 19 " (H )x 19"(D) - (20-1/2" D with grille)
F15HP - 19"(W) x 19 " (H )x 20 "(D) - (21-1/2" D with grille)

Only an inch here and two there...that sounds pretty close, but remember, this is a volume. For volume we get:
E15HP - 6,944.5 cu. in.
F15HP - 7,761.5 cu. in.

So the F15HP is actually 11.8% (almost 1/8th) larger (calculated with grill installed), while offering 0.5dB more SPL at 20Hz.

0.5dB isn't much, so the question is whether or not the smaller size would help with WAF for the second sub.

I left pricing out because I see Rythmik is running a special on the black oak F15HP. not knowing which you want, I don't know if you will save money with the E15HP or not.