Urgent Sub Help Please!

[speakerman39]

A lot of your perception of bass is set up and placement in the room. You're, in my opinion, placing too much emphasis on the subs.

Well, you are certainly entitled to YOUR opinion. But, if YOU do a search of MY history YOU will find that I have owned a lot of subs. That being said, I base my observations on what I have owned and have first hand experience with. I agree, placement is key. I will say that the Hsu VTF3.3 is no doubt the very best sub I have ever owned. Been out of the game for 6-years or so and have decided to take my bass preference up a notch. As such, I am convinced that the Rythmik L12 will do just that!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

My argument for that would be that ch

A lot of your perception of bass is set up and placement in the room. You're, in my opinion, placing too much emphasis on the subs.

My argument for that is changing subs fixed the problem. I had the E112's on top of the E15HP's, then after determining the Rythmiks sounded better, put the Rythmiks on top of the E112's. Tested with and without Audyssey. Swapped receivers (just in case).
Always, the E112 retained the sloppy character.
I can accept that my room gain may play a factor, but that is pretty much a constant for most of us.
I still have both pairs, so if you have a strategy for showing why I am mistaken, I'm willing to try it.

 

[speakerman39]

My argument for that would be that ch

My argument for that is changing subs fixed the problem. I had the E112's on top of the E15HP's, then after determining the Rythmiks sounded better, put the Rythmiks on top of the E112's. Tested with and without Audyssey. Swapped receivers (just in case).
Always, the E112 retained the sloppy character.
I can accept that my room gain may play a factor, but that is pretty much a constant for most of us.
I still have both pairs, so if you have a strategy for showing why I am mistaken, I'm willing to try it.

Sounds like YOU have done the right thing Kurt. Personally, I have learned over time that I am very picky about what I am looking for in a sub. It all began in my car audio days. One thing I have learned-quite frankly, I can NOT stand sloppy, muddy, bloated, one-note fits all bass. I need to hear the transients and I want to feel the kick drum. Some subs I have owned seemed to hang onto the notes FOREVER making it sound behind the music is you will. In other words, if the bass is NOT tight, punchy, and well articulated why even bother? We ALL have different expectations/experiences. To each his own.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Auditor55]

Well, you are certainly entitled to YOUR opinion. But, if YOU do a search of MY history YOU will find that I have owned a lot of subs. That being said, I base my observations on what I have owned and have first hand experience with. I agree, placement is key. I will say that the Hsu VTF3.3 is no doubt the very best sub I have ever owned. Been out of the game for 6-years or so and have decided to take my bass preference up a notch. As such, I am convinced that the Rythmik L12 will do just that!

Cheers,

Phil

I'm saying that because that is what some experts argue and I have found, through experience, to be true. Dealing with sub placement and room modes is a science all by itself. You can buy some high end subs and their performance will still be affected by the room.

 

[Auditor55]

Sounds like YOU have done the right thing Kurt. Personally, I have learned over time that I am very picky about what I am looking for in a sub. It all began in my car audio days. One thing I have learned-quite frankly, I can NOT stand sloppy, muddy, bloated, one-note fits all bass. I need to hear the transients and I want to feel the kick drum. Some subs I have owned seemed to hang onto the notes FOREVER making it sound behind the music is you will. In other words, if the bass is NOT tight, punchy, and well articulated why even bother? We ALL have different expectations/experiences. To each his own.

Cheers,

Phil

It sounds like you're not setting up your subs correctly. One note bass you describe sound like a Peak in your room. I'am the same as you when it comes to what you desire in bass. Have you applied in any EQ to your subs?

From what I've have read, the E112 is a pretty good small sealed sub.

"Ironically these subs are still more affordable than some of the ID brands and for there size nothing can touch them. JL Audio is upgrading my dual f110s in our family room system for dual e112s. I can't wait to experience the difference and I will definitely write it up."[Gene Desalla]

I don't think Gene would describe those subs as sloppy, muddy, one note wonder boxes.

 

[Auditor55]

My argument for that would be that ch

My argument for that is changing subs fixed the problem. I had the E112's on top of the E15HP's, then after determining the Rythmiks sounded better, put the Rythmiks on top of the E112's. Tested with and without Audyssey. Swapped receivers (just in case).
Always, the E112 retained the sloppy character.
I can accept that my room gain may play a factor, but that is pretty much a constant for most of us.
I still have both pairs, so if you have a strategy for showing why I am mistaken, I'm willing to try it.

Stacking subs is not a good idea.

 

[KEW]

I should follow-up and say that I do not really believe the E112 is a sloppy sub. I mean, with a driver like this, how could it be?

I do, however, believe(after some discussion with the good people here) that once you add in-room gain to the equation this sub produces more low frequency bloat than Audyssey knows how to tame, and the perception from this low-frequency bloat is sloppiness.
For HT, they are truly a marvel for their compact size and maybe I could live with them for music if I placed them in the middle of the room to minimize gain, however, I don't think my room has as much room gain as many listening rooms.

 

[KEW]

Stacking subs is not a good idea.

Why not? What is the concern?

Understand I was trying to get the subs close together for the purposes of A-B'ing them.
I did not expect the dramatic difference I heard between these subs, after reversing the positions, the comparative nature of the sound stayed with the sub, not with the position!

 

[speakerman39]

I'm saying that because that is what some experts argue and I have found, through experience, to be true. Dealing with sub placement and room modes is a science all by itself. You can buy some high end subs and their performance will still be affected by the room.

Oh there is no denying that the room/environment plays a part. I could NOT agree with you more. However, I spent a lot of time employing the crawl method. It is a good starting point as to where to place your sub(s). I experimented placing close to my fronts, as well as, placing the sub closer to my sweet spot. Hence, I found in my room that the sub sounded better closer to my fronts. Reason being, it disappeared more into the music. It was really hard to tell where the bass was coming from. Once I had duals, things smoothed out even more so. Eventually, I will have duals again. That was a BIG reason I chose the Rythmik L12.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

It sounds like you're not setting up your subs correctly. One note bass you describe sound like a Peak in your room. I'am the same as you when it comes to what you desire in bass. Have you applied in any EQ to your subs?

From what I've have read, the E112 is a pretty good small sealed sub.

"Ironically these subs are still more affordable than some of the ID brands and for there size nothing can touch them. JL Audio is upgrading my dual f110s in our family room system for dual e112s. I can't wait to experience the difference and I will definitely write it up."[Gene Desalla]

I don't think Gene would describe those subs as sloppy, muddy, one note wonder boxes.

No EQ was applied, but I did work with both Dr. Hsu and Ed Mullen. Both, helped me throughout the entire process. I also fine-tuned things by using my Rad Shack SPL meter and Rives Test CD II. Things did improve. I believe the Rythmik L12 will take it up a notch or two for my needs.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

It sounds like you're not setting up your subs correctly. One note bass you describe sound like a Peak in your room. I'am the same as you when it comes to what you desire in bass. Have you applied in any EQ to your subs?

From what I've have read, the E112 is a pretty good small sealed sub.

"Ironically these subs are still more affordable than some of the ID brands and for there size nothing can touch them. JL Audio is upgrading my dual f110s in our family room system for dual e112s. I can't wait to experience the difference and I will definitely write it up."[Gene Desalla]
I don't think Gene would describe those subs as sloppy, muddy, one note wonder boxes.

I would not describe them that way, because I understand that is not likely the true source of my perception of them as "sloppy"!

When asked what he could think of to improve the E112, Gene suggested adding a DSP. I do not know what his specific concern was, but the additional control, along with Audyssey, would probably allow me to get satisfaction out of the E112.

Now, please do me a favor and explain why you believe my Rythmik E15HP's and PSA XS15se's both consistently sound better in my room (despite position) than the E112 if it is not about the sub.

If I have an ill-behaved peak in my room, it should be common to all three subs, true?

 

[Auditor55]

Why not? What is the concern?

Understand I was trying to get the subs close together for the purposes of A-B'ing them.
I did not expect the dramatic difference I heard between these subs, after reversing the positions, the comparative nature of the sound stayed with the sub, not with the position!

My bad, I was thinking that's how ultimately you will set them up in your room.

 

[Auditor55]

I would not describe them that way, because I understand that is not likely the true source of my perception of them as "sloppy"!

When asked what he could think of to improve the E112, Gene suggested adding a DSP. I do not know what his specific concern was, but the additional control, along with Audyssey, would probably allow me to get satisfaction out of the E112.

Now, please do me a favor and explain why you believe my Rythmik E15HP's and PSA XS15se's both consistently sound better in my room (despite position) than the E112 if it is not about the sub.

If I have an ill-behaved peak in my room, it should be common to all three subs, true?

I can't explain that. I'm not saying your E15 isn't a better subs. However, you make the E112 to be a poor performer, so much so, that if I was looking for a sub, based upon your statements, I would stay far away from one. I'm saying, based upon Gene's review, that they can't be that bad. To have so contrasting reports, logically speaking, set up and room must be the determining factor. I don't believe that E15 is a miracle sub, immune to room modes and placement, in other words, you can drop an E15 in a room and it can sound boomy and sloppy as well.

BTW, did you take any measurements of both sets of subs in your room?

 

[KEW]

I can't explain that. I'm not saying your E15 isn't a better subs. However, you make the E112 to be a poor performer, so much so, that if I was looking for a sub, based upon your statements, I would stay far away from one. I'm saying, based upon Gene's review, that they can't be that bad. To have so contrasting reports, logically speaking, set up and room must be the determining factor. I don't believe that E15 is a miracle sub, immune to room modes and placement, in other words, you can drop an E15 in a room and it can sound boomy and sloppy as well.

BTW, did you take any measurements of both sets of subs in your room?

No.
I probably will, but I have a good learning curve on that and it is not a priority. Will post back here and quote your post when I do so as to notify you.