Urgent Sub Help Please!

[speakerman39]

Okay folks, I admit it really has been a long time since I posted on this forum. Basically, I am in need of a sub or two. Having duals is really nice, but my listening area is NOT very BIG. It measures 12' X 15' or 180 square feet. I have owned everything from the SVS PB10, PB12, Hsu VTF3, Mirage Omni S10, S12, Dual LFM Pluses, AR8's, and so on. I guess you could say I have owned a lot of subs. Being on a budget meaning I want to get buy as cheap as I can. Perhaps, say $600 tops. Of the subs listed here, the SVS were the least musical. The VTF3 and the LFM Pluses were the most musical.

Anyways, Outlaw has an excellent holiday sale going on. I can get (2) M8's for only $448 shipped! Duals really help to eliminate standing waves thus smoothing out the bass response. Outlaw, also has the Ultra X12 on sale for $549 shipped! So, would I be better off just getting the Ultra 12? Or, would (2) 8" subs work really well in my small listening area?

Musicality is a MUST! I can NOT deal with sloppy, over hung bass as my emphasis is on musicality. However, I also want decent extension for HT. The things is I do NOT need a ton of real low bass because I live in an apartment. My goal is to get as much musicality albeit tight, punchy, and well articulated bass as I can. Moreover, I am more than willing to give up some extension to gain in musicality.

Ascend has the LV12R and the L12 for $569 shipped! Both have my attention. Space is an issue and so is budget. I would prefer to get the L12 over the LV12R because of size. But, everything I read about the LV12R makes my mouth water so to speak. Will the LV12R will be able to offer me very good extension while staying punchy, tight, and well articulated for music in my small room of 180 square feet?

I have never owned a servo controlled sub so I have no idea how it really performs. I can read all day on how good it is, but does it really deliver? The Outlaw Ultra X12 looks to be a really good deal right now. The M8's at $448 do as well. But, would the M8's give me the extension I need for HT and good tight, punchy bass I need for music listening? The sale ends tomorrow! Please help........

Cheers,

Phil

 

[its phillip]

I think the M8s would be inadequate. That is a great price on the X12. Perhaps you can get one now and add another next year

The Rythmiks are also very nice so I don't think you can lose with any of them.

 

[speakerman39]

I think the M8s would be inadequate. That is a great price on the X12. Perhaps you can get one now and add another next year

The Rythmiks are also very nice so I don't think you can lose with any of them.

I also think that the M8's would suffice. But, given that the Ultra X12 is only $549 with free shipping it really is tempting. The Rythmiks has my attention the most. The questions is, will the L12 be enough? Maybe the LV12R might work better for me. That is, giving me good extension for HT while also giving me tight, punchy, well articulated bass. I am kind of stuck on what to do....LOL!!!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

I have no experience with the Outlaws, but I think some reasonable inferences can be made.
I have used a pair of Energy ESW-C8's in bonus room (above 2 car garage) - one of them had enough output, the second was for evening things out. I expect the Outlaw is a better design (the specs support that statement and the Energy is in a tiny box, which never helps).
http://www.energy-speakers.com/subwoofers/?sku=ESW-C8
For me, loud is 95dB peaks ~90dB averages (rat shack meter).

This was music and HT. I don't know how much bass you need in an apartment, but I don't get the full theater experience out of these, but I do feel the vibrations off of them. The Energy is -3dB at 36Hz and the Outlaw is -3 at 29Hz.

 

[speakerman39]

I have no experience with the Outlaws, but I think some reasonable inferences can be made.
I have used a pair of Energy ESW-C8's in bonus room (above 2 car garage) - one of them had enough output, the second was for evening things out. I expect the Outlaw is a better design (the specs support that statement and the Energy is in a tiny box, which never helps).
http://www.energy-speakers.com/subwoofers/?sku=ESW-C8
For me, loud is 95dB peaks ~90dB averages (rat shack meter).

So, you are saying that the dual 8" subs may be the way to go? I live upstairs and there is an apartment below me. The sad part is, it is the mangers apartment. Right now, we have no apartment manger. So, I actually could rock out some a get by with it. But, for the most part I will never listen real loud. I think I am after more quality than quantity. But, I also want the ability to crank it up somewhat at times. The Rythmiks look real promising. The question is which one-the L12 or the LV12R?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

I think dual 8's would work very well for music. I am pretty comfortable with them for HT in my second system, but there is no easy way to know if your extension objectives will be met. They are certainly not 15" subs.

I am definitely a big fan of dual subs!
Outlaw covers shipping both ways for returns. Can you order dual 8's and if they don't clench it, get the X12 also so you can do a direct comparison?

I am a fan of Rythmik and hate to dissuade you, but I think the ability to trial the subs without cost along with your previous experience with them suggests Outlaw.

Note that I edited my paragraph above while you were quoting me.

Also, a 12 X 15 room will give you some pretty solid gain. When I said one Energy gave ample output, mine is 3" off of the back wall and 2.5 feet from the side wall. Room measures 22' X 15'.

Your comment about SVS being least musical mirrors my experience with an SB-12plus. I think the issue may be that SVS goes to lengths to get flat response down into the 20Hz range. While that sounds like a good idea, they are replicating anechoic measurements. Once you bring them into a room, they are going to exaggerate the lower bass which can really muddy up music. I think it is a marketing decision which has worked for SVS. Most guys want to "show off" their sub and the SVS sound will do that. The idea of a sub that disappears into the music is probably not the majority of consumers!

 

[speakerman39]

I think dual 8's would work very well for music. I am pretty comfortable with them for HT in my second system, but there is no easy way to know if your extension objectives will be met. They are certainly not 15" subs.

I am definitely a big fan of dual subs!
Outlaw covers shipping both ways for returns. Can you order dual 8's and if they don't clench it, get the X12 also so you can do a direct comparison?

I am a fan of Rythmik and hate to dissuade you, but I think the ability to trial the subs without cost along with your previous experience with them suggests Outlaw.

Note that I edited my paragraph above while you were quoting me.

Also, a 12 X 15 room will give you some pretty solid gain. When I said one Energy gave ample output, mine is 3" off of the back wall and 2.5 feet from the side wall. Room measures 22' X 15'.

Your comment about SVS being least musical mirrors my experience with an SB-12plus. I think the issue may be that SVS goes to lengths to get flat response down into the 20Hz range. While that sounds like a good idea, they are replicating anechoic measurements. Once you bring them into a room, they are going to exaggerate the lower bass which can really muddy up music. I think it is a marketing decision which has worked for SVS. Most guys want to "show off" their sub and the SVS sound will do that. The idea of a sub that disappears into the music is probably not the majority of consumers!

Kurt, it seems we share a lot of similar experiences. I also really like the idea of having dual subs. But, in order to do that I would have to go the M8's. Can't afford to get dual X12's. I also think dual X12's would be much overkill for my room. But, a single X12 might just be right.

Hsu does not have any real bargains going figuring in shipping costs. Getting (2) STF-2's would still cost me $750. The VTF-1/2 would cost even more. Just can't do that. So, it is either the Ultra X12 OR (2) M8's. Leaning more towards the X12 as we speak. It seems to be the BIGGER bargain for only $549 and free shipping. The Ultra X12 should be very close to the VTF3.3 imho.

My comments regarding SVS is NOT to discredit them in any way. But, the truth is, the PB10/PB12 were NOT musical at all. Sure, when it came to extension they both were champs. But, I am much more about musicality. I am picky like that....LOL!!!!

The Rthymiks have my attention. The question is, however, would the L12 give me enough extension as I am sure it will be more than enough musically speaking. That is why I am thinking the LV12R will give me more than enough extension and still able to deliver punchy, tight, articulate bass. If so, that is the way I am going. So, it really comes down to the Ultra X12 or the LV12R. Not sure just yet!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

OK, I get you are on a budget, but look how much you have spent on subs. Look at the list of subs you have owned- how much have you spent there? I don't know if they were for a bunch of different systems, but if not, what if you had just bought one good sub that would never needed upgrading from? You would have saved a bunch of money and had amazing bass the whole time. Raise the budget, bite the bullet, and buy the last sub you will ever need. I would get a powerful modular system whereby when you want to upgrade, you simply get more of the same instead of selling and replacing with something else. You might look at the Hsu ULS-15, Rythmik F15HP, or Reaction Gamma 15. When you want a better system, just add more of the same; do not replace.

 

[speakerman39]

OK, I get you are on a budget, but look how much you have spent on subs. Look at the list of subs you have owned- how much have you spent there? I don't know if they were for a bunch of different systems, but if not, what if you had just bought one good sub that would never needed upgrading from? You would have saved a bunch of money and had amazing bass the whole time. Raise the budget, bite the bullet, and buy the last sub you will ever need. I would get a powerful modular system whereby when you want to upgrade, you simply get more of the same instead of selling and replacing with something else. You might look at the Hsu ULS-15, Rythmik F15HP, or Reaction Gamma 15. When you want a better system, just add more of the same; do not replace.

Yeah Shady YOU have a point. The subs I have owned were over a long period in various set-ups. To date the best sub I ever owned was a Hsu VTF3.3. It was very good with HT and very good musically speaking. I have been out of the game for almost 7-years now. Reason being, mainly budget issues and moving into a small apartment.

I would love to own a Hsu ULS-15 or a Rythmik F15HP, but both are out of my budget range. Plus, living in an apartment will create a lot of neighbor issues. Right now, I am leaning towards the Rythmik LV12R or the L12. Prefer the L12 due to size. But, the LV12R may be a better choice for me. Down the road, I can always get another.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[3db]

Okay folks, I admit it really has been a long time since I posted on this forum. Basically, I am in need of a sub or two. Having duals is really nice, but my listening area is NOT very BIG. It measures 12' X 15' or 180 square feet. I have owned everything from the SVS PB10, PB12, Hsu VTF3, Mirage Omni S10, S12, Dual LFM Pluses, AR8's, and so on. I guess you could say I have owned a lot of subs. Being on a budget meaning I want to get buy as cheap as I can. Perhaps, say $600 tops. Of the subs listed here, the SVS were the least musical. The VTF3 and the LFM Pluses were the most musical.

Anyways, Outlaw has an excellent holiday sale going on. I can get (2) M8's for only $448 shipped! Duals really help to eliminate standing waves thus smoothing out the bass response. Outlaw, also has the Ultra X12 on sale for $549 shipped! So, would I be better off just getting the Ultra 12? Or, would (2) 8" subs work really well in my small listening area?

Musicality is a MUST! I can NOT deal with sloppy, over hung bass as my emphasis is on musicality. However, I also want decent extension for HT. The things is I do NOT need a ton of real low bass because I live in an apartment. My goal is to get as much musicality albeit tight, punchy, and well articulated bass as I can. Moreover, I am more than willing to give up some extension to gain in musicality.

Ascend has the LV12R and the L12 for $569 shipped! Both have my attention. Space is an issue and so is budget. I would prefer to get the L12 over the LV12R because of size. But, everything I read about the LV12R makes my mouth water so to speak. Will the LV12R will be able to offer me very good extension while staying punchy, tight, and well articulated for music in my small room of 180 square feet?

I have never owned a servo controlled sub so I have no idea how it really performs. I can read all day on how good it is, but does it really deliver? The Outlaw Ultra X12 looks to be a really good deal right now. The M8's at $448 do as well. But, would the M8's give me the extension I need for HT and good tight, punchy bass I need for music listening? The sale ends tomorrow! Please help........

Cheers,

Phil

I own a LV12-R and I have set it up for maximum extension and even in this mode, I found its output to be very articulate hearing pitch changes in bass during sound effects. You can configure the setup for a higher bass extension which reportedly tighten ups the bass. The image below is for the sealed version, the L12 but is identical to the LV12-R.

Unfortunately, I haven't heard the L12. There is a 30 day trial period where you can ship it back for a full refund. If still in doubt, contact the folks at Rythmik and get them to way in. They are excellent to deal with.

Here's Jman's review of the LV12-R

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/67309-rythmik-lv12r-subwoofer-review.html

 

[speakerman39]

I own a LV12-R and I have set it up for maximum extension and even in this mode, I found its output to be very articulate hearing pitch changes in bass during sound effects. You can configure the setup for a higher bass extension which reportedly tighten ups the bass. The image below is for the sealed version, the L12 but is identical to the LV12-R.

Unfortunately, I haven't heard the L12. There is a 30 day trial period where you can ship it back for a full refund. If still in doubt, contact the folks at Rythmik and get them to way in. They are excellent to deal with.

Here's Jman's review of the LV12-R

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/speaker-subwoofer-reviews/67309-rythmik-lv12r-subwoofer-review.html

Thanks for the insight. I will take a look at that review. Will try to contact the folks at Rythmik as well. Appreciate YOUR help!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Bummer......just learned the Rythmik L12 AND the LV12R are both sold out. So, I gave them a call and was told they both would be back in stock in (2) weeks! Just my luck. Oh well, I guess I can wait. Worse things have happened.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

I just called Ascend and inquired if they had any L12's in stock. Spoke to a very nice lady and she told me that a small batch would be coming in mid-January. Further, she advised me to get MY name in the hat. So, I just got through ordering an L12. Was told my credit card will NOT be charged until shipments come in. But, it sure seemed like it went through like always. Can't wait to get my L12!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[3db]

I just called Ascend and inquired if they had any L12's in stock. Spoke to a very nice lady and she told me that a small batch would be coming in mid-January. Further, she advised me to get MY name in the hat. So, I just got through ordering an L12. Was told my credit card will NOT be charged until shipments come in. But, it sure seemed like it went through like always. Can't wait to get my L12!

Cheers,

Phil

Congrats. I think you will ge very pleased.

 

[speakerman39]

Congrats. I think you will ge very pleased.

Thanks! I think I will be pleased as well. However, it would have been nice if it was in stock! But, it is what it is. Just can't wait now though.....LOL!!!!! Thanks for your help! Happy Blessed New Year!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

Thanks! I think I will be pleased as well. However, it would have been nice if it was in stock! But, it is what it is. Just can't wait now though.....LOL!!!!! Thanks for your help! Happy Blessed New Year!

Cheers,

Phil

Good for you for choosing patience!
Rythmik E15HP's were my final choice (after comparing to JL Audio E112's).

 

[speakerman39]

Good for you for choosing patience!
Rythmik E15HP's were my final choice (after comparing to JL Audio E112's).

Yeah patience is a virtue...LOL!!! I have waited this long so why not wait until I can get the L12? Just excited.....LOL!!!! Happy Blessed New year to you Kurt!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

You too, Phil.
It is great that you are able to start the year with good sound quality and great that there are great budget values like the Sony Core speakers!!!

 

[speakerman39]

You too, Phil.
It is great that you are able to start the year with good sound quality and great that there are great budget values like the Sony Core speakers!!!

Yes, it really is a good way to start the new year. You know I was thinking earlier (yeah I know it is okay to run.....LOL!) what Dennis Murphy could do with the Sony Cores? It sure would be interesting to see. You agree?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Auditor55]

Kurt, it seems we share a lot of similar experiences. I also really like the idea of having dual subs. But, in order to do that I would have to go the M8's. Can't afford to get dual X12's. I also think dual X12's would be much overkill for my room. But, a single X12 might just be right.

Hsu does not have any real bargains going figuring in shipping costs. Getting (2) STF-2's would still cost me $750. The VTF-1/2 would cost even more. Just can't do that. So, it is either the Ultra X12 OR (2) M8's. Leaning more towards the X12 as we speak. It seems to be the BIGGER bargain for only $549 and free shipping. The Ultra X12 should be very close to the VTF3.3 imho.

My comments regarding SVS is NOT to discredit them in any way. But, the truth is, the PB10/PB12 were NOT musical at all. Sure, when it came to extension they both were champs. But, I am much more about musicality. I am picky like that....LOL!!!!

The Rthymiks have my attention. The question is, however, would the L12 give me enough extension as I am sure it will be more than enough musically speaking. That is why I am thinking the LV12R will give me more than enough extension and still able to deliver punchy, tight, articulate bass. If so, that is the way I am going. So, it really comes down to the Ultra X12 or the LV12R. Not sure just yet!

Cheers,

Phil

A lot of your perception of bass is set up and placement in the room. You're, in my opinion, placing too much emphasis on the subs.