Marantz SR7009

[Klipschhead302]

With a -10 trim on the sub, you might actually want to back their gain down a tad before re-running. You can always bump up the trim a tad to compensate (and season to taste), but this can help lead to a more accurate result. It's also useful if you're listening at lower levels, since with such a low trim, your subs might not be seeing enough signal from the AVR to turn on.

Edit: PS, do you have any ability to measure the results of what Audyssey is doing?

I have my Radio Shack digital DB meter, I have company coming over for New Years later, I have the AVR running pretty well now by adjusting levels using the Marantz tone generator and I fired up the SR5003 and checked it's settings.

Then using the DB meter I pushed the system with the SR5003 and received 123db figuring even if it's off it can compare the two receivers.

The best I got with the SR7009 was 121db using the same music to test with. It would have been nice having one AC Outlet so I could plug my Gen1 Apple TV into it so it comes on with the receiver. I'm going to order a trigger based power strip so the receiver can turn it on that way. I also don't know why they removed the surround mode button from the remote, I found it very useful when playing music through the Apple TV.

I know I'm complaining about the difference in output etc... so let me switch to the positive.

1. Sound quality in movies, it sounds better with the SR7009, you don't have many modes to choose from in music, there is multi-channel stereo however for example using my Gen1 Apple TV and playing Adel 25, it sounds better through the SR5003 at this point, so I'm going to work on this tomorrow. For tonight nobody will notice.

2. Internet Radio has a lot of my local stations, it has a great Old Time Radio station and the HD stations sound pretty darn good considering.

3. The Marantz app has a low rating, I have found it very useful.

4. No firmware update was needed, it did mention the Auro-3D upgrade and to visit the Marantz website to purchase. Which I won't do, but the process looked very easy.

I believe I'm going to keep this beast, I'll get things sorted out, what does surprise me is the near equal output between the two AVR's.

 

[PENG]

but right now, as configured by Audyssey, that little SR5003 is wiping the floor with the SR7009.

The SR5003 is a very good unit. In pure direct I don't even expect the SR7009 sound better. If you had set up the SR5003 manually before, you would have dial in your subwoofers to your own liking, and you may actually prefer your bass much "hotter" than Audyssey's (i.e. "reference"). I gernerally prefer my bass to be just accurate, but every time after Audyssey had done its part, I would still add 2dB to the sub level just to add extra excitement for movies.

I also always use DEQ because I do not listen to reference SPL, but about 8 to 10 dB lower. If you don't listen to reference level, be sure to try and engage DEQ as well because you may like it.

Audyssey has most gains set to -10, the subs set to -11 on the last go round, shouldn't Audyssey be consistent if the mic is set per instructions each time you run it?

Another member recently reported similar results and he owned some large Klipsch speakers as well. The RF-82's sensitivity is 98 dB at 2.83V 1m, that it about 10 dB higher than a lot of speakers. So in your 15X15 room you probably sit 12 to 13 ft from the centre speaker, no wonder Audyssey has to set them to -10 !!

Remember Audyssey's goal is to set the levels such that at your listening position, with volume turn to "0", you will get "reference" SPL when watching movies.

Below is what Dr. Kyriakakis said about trim levels (https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/22104618-Speaker-Trim-Levels)

"Trim levels are just relative numbers. There is nothing wrong (or different) about negative trims. The point of calibrating levels is to (1) achieve the same level for every speaker and (2) play at film reference when the master volume is at 0.

If the speakers have high sensitivity, or are close to the listening position (or both) then the trim levels will show up negative to achieve the goals mentioned above. It's not a good idea to change the trims because that will throw off the Dynamic EQ calibration. If you want the system to play louder just turn up the master volume.

SPL meters need calibration so it's possible that there is enough discrepancy between the meter and the Audyssey mic to show different readings. Also, the internal test noise of the AVR is a slightly different way of calculating level than what Audyssey does using psychoacoustic weighting of the measured response.

In any case, it's not a huge deal to change the trims if you feel the need to (keeping in mind the implications on Dynamic EQ). The most important part of Audyssey--the filters--are not affected by trim levels."

 

[PENG]

I also don't know why they removed the surround mode button from the remote, I found it very useful when playing music through the Apple TV.

You get the same functions by pressing and holding down any of the sound mode buttons (movie, music, game).

 

[Klipschhead302]

Actually you should not really "hear" the subs for music, the bass of your mains should just seem more solid.
I usually run my subs 5-6dB hotter than Audyssey suggested for HT action movies to give more excitement/fun to the movie.
But for music, if I left it this high, I would drown out a lot of upper to mid bass by having too much low bass. If you come from car audio, this is often a point of confusion. However, if you listen to music with lots of rich bass detail throughout the low to upper bass range, you will see how too much low bass muddies up the rest.

The subs produced nearly nothing, in anything as configured by the system. I'm not saying I should hear the subs, I never expect to hear them, but they should be adding to what ever you're listening to if the content reaches into their territory. Sadly as automatically configured they might as well not even be there, for music or movies.

I put on Bass Mekanik "Subsonic" (I use it for testing, I hate the actual music) and this is something that "should" shake the living hell out of your room and the output I got was a joke. Even my wife laughed and said, that's it?

I'm not confused, I know when something is set too hot, which Audessey did to my surrounds and people tell me to trust it. Tomorrow I'm starting fresh, for now with the distances added and using the Marantz tone generator I have the system very near sounding good, not awesome for tonight, tomorrow we'll see how it goes.

 

[Klipschhead302]

The SR5003 is a very good unit. In pure direct I don't even expect the SR7009 sound better. If you had set up the SR5003 manually before, you would have dial in your subwoofers to your own liking, and you may actually prefer your bass much "hotter" than Audyssey's (i.e. "reference"). I gernerally prefer my bass to be just accurate, but every time after Audyssey had done its part, I would still add 2dB to the sub level just to add extra excitement for movies.

I also always use DEQ because I do not listen to reference SPL, but about 8 to 10 dB lower. If you don't listen to reference level, be sure to try and engage DEQ as well because you may like it.



Another member recently reported similar results and he owned some large Klipsch speakers as well. The RF-82's sensitivity is 98 dB at 2.83V 1m, that it about 10 dB higher than a lot of speakers. So in your 15X15 room you probably sit 12 to 13 ft from the centre speaker, no wonder Audyssey has to set them to -10 !!

Remember Audyssey's goal is to set the levels such that at your listening position, with volume turn to "0", you will get "reference" SPL when watching movies.

Below is what Dr. Kyriakakis said about trim levels (https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/22104618-Speaker-Trim-Levels)

"Trim levels are just relative numbers. There is nothing wrong (or different) about negative trims. The point of calibrating levels is to (1) achieve the same level for every speaker and (2) play at film reference when the master volume is at 0.

If the speakers have high sensitivity, or are close to the listening position (or both) then the trim levels will show up negative to achieve the goals mentioned above. It's not a good idea to change the trims because that will throw off the Dynamic EQ calibration. If you want the system to play louder just turn up the master volume.

SPL meters need calibration so it's possible that there is enough discrepancy between the meter and the Audyssey mic to show different readings. Also, the internal test noise of the AVR is a slightly different way of calculating level than what Audyssey does using psychoacoustic weighting of the measured response.

In any case, it's not a huge deal to change the trims if you feel the need to (keeping in mind the implications on Dynamic EQ). The most important part of Audyssey--the filters--are not affected by trim levels."

I have to get ready for company coming over, I understand trim levels, however, when you have to crank the receiver to near 90 to hear things well, and full volume is 98, something is very wrong.

Yes, the RF-82's are 98 efficient however the SR5003 set them at +4.5, not -10, and I get different results each time I run Audessey so I took the settings I had in the SR5003 and pretty much set the SR7009 the same way for tonight and it sounds much much better, not because I prefer it this way but because it doesn't sound like some pile of junk purchased in the Walmart bargain bin now.

 

[Klipschhead302]

Here is a picture of the SR7009 in the living room entertainment center/fake fireplace.

 

[KEW]

No worries, we need to cover the bases. I helped out a local guy who liked his neighbor's Onkyo sub better than his new sub (bought off forum recommendation) - Reaction Audio Gamma 18. I think his expectations were developed in part from Best Buy showroom auditions. He was a smart guy and got it when I started playing my audition CD and he heard levels of detail he never did on other systems.
In any case, we are (partially) products of our past experiences and we now know the above is not your case.

FWIW, my SR7008 set my 5.2 speaker levels as follows:
-5dB for all 3 front speakers (RF82ii's and RC-52ii)
-7 and -7.5 for subs (Rythmik E15HP's)
-0.5 and -2.5 for surrounds (Mirage OMD-5's)
I am in a medium sized LR, but the ceiling opens to the second floor so the volume is large (not including that floorplan is open to kitchen, foyer, and office).
The loudest I have listened sustained was MadMax at -10dB (with sub levels adjusted up to -2 and -2.5dB)

 

[Klipschhead302]

You get the same functions by pressing and holding down any of the sound mode buttons (movie, music, game).

Yeah I see that, need to get used to this remote. I downloaded the PDF of the manual for the AVR which I'll be going over tomorrow.

 

[Klipschhead302]

No worries, we need to cover the bases. I helped out a local guy who liked his neighbor's Onkyo sub better than his new sub (bought off forum recommendation) - Reaction Audio Gamma 18. I think his expectations were developed in part from Best Buy showroom auditions. He was a smart guy and got it when I started playing my audition CD and he heard levels of detail he never did on other systems.
In any case, we are (partially) products of our past experiences and we now know the above is not your case.

FWIW, my SR7008 set my 5.2 speaker levels as follows:
-5dB for all 3 front speakers (RF82ii's and RC-52ii)
-7 and -7.5 for subs (Rythmik E15HP's)
-0.5 and -2.5 for surrounds (Mirage OMD-5's)
I am in a medium sized LR, but the ceiling opens to the second floor so the volume is large (not including that floorplan is open to kitchen, foyer, and office).
The loudest I have listened sustained was MadMax at -10dB (with sub levels adjusted up to -2 and -2.5dB)

I know part of the problem is the back of the room, the set up routine wants the mic in 2 positions that are very difficult to position because the HT seating recliners are darn near against the back wall and if I move them out, then I'll have issues with she who rules the living room.

Tomorrow should be interesting, I'm going to reset the works and start from scratch, right now as configured the system doesn't sound hot, playing Adel 25 sounds warm and full, very nice to the ears. Better than it did on the SR5003 so there is progress.

I have the Essentials Blu-Ray for configuring picture and sound but darned if I can find it... dagnabit.

Have a very Happy New Year, I'll post in the morning.

 

[PENG]

I have to get ready for company coming over, I understand trim levels, however, when you have to crank the receiver to near 90 to hear things well, and full volume is 98, something is very wrong.

I agree, on the 0-98 scale, 80 should get you cinema loud SPL, 90 should be hearing damaging loud.

Yes, the RF-82's are 98 efficient however the SR5003 set them at +4.5, not -10, and I get different results each time I run Audessey so I took the settings I had in the SR5003 and pretty much set the SR7009 the same way for tonight and it sounds much much better, not because I prefer it this way but because it doesn't sound like some pile of junk purchased in the Walmart bargain bin now.

That is strange, I do expect Audyssey much more consistent that you are experiencing, but at the end of the day if it sounds good now that's all that matter. I am glad the SR7009 works out for you. IMO it is currently one of the best value for the money.

 

[Klipschhead302]

I agree, on the 0-98 scale, 80 should get you cinema loud SPL, 90 should be hearing damaging loud.



That is strange, I do expect Audyssey much more consistent that you are experiencing, but at the end of the day if it sounds good now that's all that matter. I am glad the SR7009 works out for you. IMO it is currently one of the best value for the money.

I have to wonder if the furnace could be a factor, it isn't that loud to me but I believe it does cycle a few times while Audessey is running.

Time for another crack...

 

[Klipschhead302]

I removed the stickers, guess she is a keeper!

 

[Adam]

Looks like your speakers are centered around the wrong television.

Did you get any better results when you turned the furnace off (if you did)? I was also wondering if you had the mic at ear level when you ran the tests. In my house, if I don't get the mic up high enough, the back of the couch is between the speakers and the mic - but it isn't between the speakers and my ears. If you have obstructions like that, like furniture or pillows or whatever, it can throw it off relative to what you hear when you're sitting down. I'm not trying to be patronizing at all - I just don't know how you did it, and there's plenty of ways to get odd results. One of my buddies was telling me that it didn't work that great for him, and then he mentioned how loud the speakers were during the test. I asked him if he was in the room during the test, and he said, "sure, I was holding the mic."

 

[PENG]

I have to wonder if the furnace could be a factor, it isn't that loud to me but I believe it does cycle a few times while Audessey is running.

Time for another crack...

The newer D&M's do have very clear onscreen instructions but IMO some fine details that could be important are missing. I am sure you know those details already as you are an experienced Marantz/Audyssey user. However, since you did get some weird results, I still want to emphasize the following just in case you really want to do it again:

- Turn off the furnace and anything that make audible ambiance noise. (this one is your own)

- Make sure your mic sits tight on a tripod (I wouldn't trust the paper cone but that's just me).

- Point mic straight up to the ceiling, not at any angle.

- The mic must not be blocked by the back of the armchair, if that's means having to sit it a few inches above ear level so be it. (Edit: This is Adam's)

- Avoid extreme positions including up against the back wall or too far outside angle spanned by the front Left and Right speakers. Taking measurements in these positions will cause MultEQ to make unnecessary adjustments.

I think the last point may be important to you if your seats are too close to a wall behind. You may want to try just doing it for the 3 primary listening positions and see if the measured distances would come closer to your tape measurements.

In the end it is also possible that even if Audyssey does everything right, it does not mean you will like the result, but I think it is worth trying to get it right because it could at least give you a baseline to tweak from. The good thing is that you have already managed to get it sound better than before.

Below is what I ended up with my Marantz AV8801, you can see the improvements in the low range up to 150 Hz.

 

[PENG]

Looks like your speakers are centered around the wrong television.

I wonder if that is an Admiral, RCA, GE, Westinghouse or what?

 

[Klipschhead302]

Looks like your speakers are centered around the wrong television.

I know right! We watch black and white programming on that RCA Victor from 1956, it still works pretty well.

Did you get any better results when you turned the furnace off (if you did)? I was also wondering if you had the mic at ear level when you ran the tests.

I haven't had a chance to do anything yet, the wife has me doing honeydo things, my price for buying the Marantz.

In my house, if I don't get the mic up high enough, the back of the couch is between the speakers and the mic - but it isn't between the speakers and my ears. If you have obstructions like that, like furniture or pillows or whatever, it can throw it off relative to what you hear when you're sitting down. I'm not trying to be patronizing at all - I just don't know how you did it, and there's plenty of ways to get odd results. One of my buddies was telling me that it didn't work that great for him, and then he mentioned how loud the speakers were during the test. I asked him if he was in the room during the test, and he said, "sure, I was holding the mic."

Good points, I was OCD in placing the mic per the screen prompts, I had to use the supplied mic stand but it was easily adjustable for proper height. My main problem was the last two steps because of the seating and the room being so small, I can see that being off a little bit.

The furnace is on now and I do believe it could have been a factor, I had no idea how much sound it produced until I started listening for it, now it bugs me... go figure! We have a birthday party to go to so today isn't looking good for working on the config.

I had my best friend over last night and asked him to be truthful regarding how the movie sounded. I put on Jurassic World for him and this was a good test because the wife and I watched it on Monday so it was still pretty fresh in our minds.

He thought it sounded cleaner, less in your face and the surround effects better placed. My wife and I agreed with his assessment but it made me wonder if I might be running the surrounds a bit hot, I don't think so because I don't recall hearing surround effects until they were used and it was hard to locate the effect, something that was easy to do on the previous set up.

I'm writing everything down so after I run through the set up again, if it does the same thing I'll go back to these settings and tweak from there.

My only complaint, is my lack of current knowledge, I configured this HT back in 2009 and haven't really touched it much since and things have changed enough where terms and assumptions have changed a bit. I have a lot to learn and I think this new AVR is a leap in the right direction, I do wish Marantz had given it 4K HDCP 2.2 however, maybe a firmware update? Maybe?

 

[Klipschhead302]

I wonder if that is an Admiral, RCA, GE, Westinghouse or what?

1956 RCA Victor, built like a tank! Still provides entertainment, last night I watched some Twilight Zone on it.

 

[Klipschhead302]

The newer D&M's do have very clear onscreen instructions but IMO some fine details that could be important are missing. I am sure you know those details already as you are an experienced Marantz/Audyssey user. However, since you did get some weird results, I still want to emphasize the following just in case you really want to do it again:

- Turn off the furnace and anything that make audible ambiance noise. (this one is your own)

- Make sure your mic sits tight on a tripod (I wouldn't trust the paper cone but that's just me).

- Point mic straight up to the ceiling, not at any angle.

I don't think I qualify as even a newb Audessey user, but I'm working on it.
Aside from the furnace (DOH!!) aside form using a level, it was as straight as I could get it.

- The mic must not be blocked by the back of the armchair, if that's means having to sit it a few inches above ear level so be it. (Edit: This is Adam's)

- Avoid extreme positions including up against the back wall or too far outside angle spanned by the front Left and Right speakers. Taking measurements in these positions will cause MultEQ to make unnecessary adjustments.

I think the last point may be important to you if your seats are too close to a wall behind. You may want to try just doing it for the 3 primary listening positions and see if the measured distances would come closer to your tape measurements.

In the end it is also possible that even if Audyssey does everything right, it does not mean you will like the result, but I think it is worth trying to get it right because it could at least give you a baseline to tweak from. The good thing is that you have already managed to get it sound better than before.

Below is what I ended up with my Marantz AV8801, you can see the improvements in the low range up to 150 Hz.

The mic in position 7 & 8 was inbetween the HT recliners, I need to take a picture but it had clear line of sight to the AVR, BUT was closer to the wall in 7 & 8 than I would like.

I wish the seats weren't up to the wall, not butting up against, but very close making it difficult to get the last 2 positions correct.

All 3 listening position are in HT Recliners very close to the back wall, the room is too damn small. This is what happens when you buy to please your wife instead of buying to make both happy.

I do have to say however, last night it sounded incredible after I went through using the DB meter and the Marantz test tones. I hope to run through it tomorrow depending on if work calls or not.

Last note, using multi-ch Stereo with Adel 25, sounded incredible!

 

[KEW]

1956 RCA Victor, built like a tank! Still provides entertainment, last night I watched some Twilight Zone on it.

Where does your signal come from? Are they transmitting analog still? I don't even know!
Or do you feed it from a VCR?

 

[PENG]

Where does your signal come from? Are they transmitting analog still? I don't even know!
Or do you feed it from a VCR?

Great questions, may be from black&white tapes, VCD, DVD etc. Some of those old movies/videos are good to watch on a 4:3 set.