Old school Yamaha amps vs ?

[Jack N]

I’ve slowly been collecting old Yamaha M-80, M-85, and MX-1000 amps for my dedicated home theater build. The problem is finding these old amps that are in good condition because of their age, and not having to pay ridiculous prices for them because the demand is so high. I know I could send them to Legendary Amps for restoration, but by the time a got done with all of them I’d have a fortune invested, literally. Also with the waiting list time, and turn-around time, I wouldn’t have them ready for a couple of years. So I’ve been tossing around the idea of using new amps instead. But because I’m not able to listen to any of them before hand, I don’t how they would stack up against those fabulous old Yamahas. Is there anybody here who has listened to one of those old Yammies, and something new/newer? Of course the Emotiva stuff looks real appealing from a price standpoint, but I’m quite leery about the sound quality. I’d like to get as close to the razor sharpness, perfect neutrality, and headroom of the Yammies as possible.

 

[fmw]

There hasn't been a meaningful improvement in the sound of high fidelity solid state amplifiers in decades. The new stuff will perform just as well and last longer.

 

[Jack N]

If that's true, then why the high demand for those 30 year old amps? Why aren't they buying new stuff that costs less if it sounds just as good?

 

[markw]

If that's true, then why the high demand for those 30 year old amps? Why aren't they buying new stuff that costs less if it sounds just as good?

Supply and demand. Sometimes, people will pay a fortune for panache. '57 Chevys are great, pretty, and cost a fortune but, in the overall scheme of things, modern tech trumps them.

My Marantz 2270 and 2230 are great units but I don't delude myself that they are better than some new stuff.

 

[Jack N]

Ok. I just want to make sure I'm understanding you clearly. You are saying that the Emotiva amps sound just as good as the old Yammies or any other amp (even though you haven't heard them?)? If so, that's fine. I just don't know if I'm going to agree with it unless there are several others who will reaffirm. If there are, that would be great. I'll go with the Emotivas.

I certainly agree with you concerning panache.

FWIW - I never have liked 57 Chevys even though I'm a GM guy.

 

[markw]

You're quite good at putting words in others mouths, aren't you? You asked a question, I offered an answer. No, I haven't heard those particular amps but in my 50+ years in this hobby I've heard a good many amps and feel pretty confident in what I said.

It sounds like you've got your mind pretty well set on the yammies. Far be it from me to try to convince you.

Of course, You could always try the Emotivas, or whatever, and see for yourself. I guess that would be too much trouble.

 

[Jack N]

Actually, no, I don't have my mind set on the Yammies. They're cost prohibitive as I mentioned.

I'm just not inclined to accept a one size fits all answer and would like something more concrete - IE: I've listened to XXX and YYY and found that XXX sounds better because......

I find it hard to believe that every solid state amp that's ever been made sounds the same as next. It's not a logical conclusion that I would come up with and that's why I said that if there are others that would verify what you're saying I'd be more inclined to agree. I need more of a committee consensus for such a broad coverage statement. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. lt wouldn't be the first time.

 

[markw]

So, you disagree that modern amps can't sound at least as good as your amps?

Good luck with that one.

Again, you won't know until you try it for yourself. You'll just be getting opinions anyway, and you know what they say about those. It seems that you disagree with two already.

Buck up and get ready for the costs of pampering old equipment.

I'm outta here.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Something to keep in mind with older amps is that unless they’ve been given a make-over they probably aren’t performing as good as they did when they were new. IIR capacitors in particular start “wearing thin” after 20 years or so (markw, please correct me if I missed the age).

Honestly, most amps sound the same to most people. Typically the people who claim they hear differences between then have highly trained ears and systems that cost tens of thousands.

BTW, another excellent vintage amp you might consider is the early Adcoms – GFA-555 et. al. Had a great reputation back in the day and seem to sell for reasonable prices on ebay. I had a pair of them between 1996 and ~2008 and they served me well. One of them I had connected to my main L/R channels, but honestly I couldn’t hear a difference between it and the amps in my Yamaha flagship receiver.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Jack N]

Thank-you Wayne for offering something more concrete with your suggestion of the Adcom in comparison to Yamaha.

Your comment about amps sounding the same to most people reaffirms what markw and fmw were saying and that’s what I was looking for – A consistent common opinion among multiple posters. I don’t know why markw was having such a problem with that. At any rate I’m truthfully surprised to learn that amps sound so similar. That's a good thing because it puts me more at ease in trying lower cost new amps. Like anyone else, I’m always happy to save money and eliminate some hassle at the same time. Thanks.

 

[markw]

Sorry, jack. I don't deal in absolutes. I've not heard all amps to be able to say they all sound the same. I don't doubt some manufacturers can internally "tweak" their sound in order to give them a marketing edge to some ears in some markets.

Here's an interesting read for ya.

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/899nad/#phGaagsesZW5iJjD.97

But what I will say is that the amps I've heard did not have any significant differences but, then again, I've never been one to hold my breath, sit in a particular spot, close my eyes, and tilt my head just so to listen for every minute detail.

I will go on record, however, in saying that, on the whole, equipment manufactured today is at least as good as stuff manufactured decades ago. But, my 2270 sure looks purty in a dark room.

 

[fmw]

If that's true, then why the high demand for those 30 year old amps? Why aren't they buying new stuff that costs less if it sounds just as good?

It is something you would have to ask them.

 

[fmw]

Thank-you Wayne for offering something more concrete with your suggestion of the Adcom in comparison to Yamaha.

Your comment about amps sounding the same to most people reaffirms what markw and fmw were saying and that’s what I was looking for – A consistent common opinion among multiple posters. I don’t know why markw was having such a problem with that. At any rate I’m truthfully surprised to learn that amps sound so similar. That's a good thing because it puts me more at ease in trying lower cost new amps. Like anyone else, I’m always happy to save money and eliminate some hassle at the same time. Thanks.

Here are a couple of truths for you.

1. Many audible differences arise in the bias of the listener rather than in the equipment. Many audible differences disappear in a blind, bias controlled test.

2. Cost is an unreliable indicator of performance in audio.

Sorry but it is a messed up industry riddled with misinformation.

 

[Swerd]

I find it hard to believe that every solid state amp that's ever been made sounds the same as next. It's not a logical conclusion that I would come up with and that's why I said that if there are others that would verify what you're saying I'd be more inclined to agree. I need more of a committee consensus for such a broad coverage statement. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. lt wouldn't be the first time.

Also count me as one who would say that amps tend to sound very similar.

For the best answer to your question that I know of, read this link: http://www.helarc.com/guru/guruscordell.htm

Who is Bob Cordell and why should we pay attention to his opinions? https://web.archive.org/web/20081121004321/http://www.cordellaudio.com/aboutme.shtml

 

[ski2xblack]

To add to fmw's truths: Amps with linear response, low distortion, low output impedance, and operated within their clean power limits do indeed tend to sound the same. When these conditions are not adhered to, actual audible differences can and do occur.

Jack, you need to compare the repair and maintenance cost of the older amps to that of new. If you have access to a reputable repair shop, that route is often less expensive than new amps (depending on the repairs involved, of course). From your first post, your shop is kinda pricey, and the time and hassle compounds the expense. If I were you, I would ignore any sentimental feelings for the old amps and go with new (or at least newer) gear. Emotiva amps are quite good.

As for newer than what you got but used, I know a person selling an ATI AT2007, asking $2250. I think the warranty is transferable, not sure, but that would replace seven channels of those old Yamaha amps and do an outstanding job of it.

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't know who is after those 30 year old amps. They may be lunatics or competent serious collectors.

If you are going to build a home theater round 30 year old amps, then you need to have the equipment and knowledge to test and repair them. If that is not you, you should absolutely not be buying these amps.

They I think were part of the craze for being able to switch bias from class A to A/B. However when operated in class A they usually blew up, like most of those designs of that era.

I think the overwhelming advice hear is for you to go for new or newer amps.

 

[Seth=L]

I don't know who is after those 30 year old amps. They may be lunatics or competent serious collectors.

Oh we're definitely lunatics. I was looking at a Yamaha MX-1 yesterday and was this close to buying it but the store selling it did not have to means to properly test it for me and I was at least 100 miles from home and I wasn't about to drive all over creation just to get the equipment necessary. So I guess maybe I'm only part lunatic.

The amplifier is rated 200 watts per channel at 8 ohms with 0.008% THD and 320 watts at 2 ohms with 0.09% THD. It weighs 52 pounds (partly due to a base plate that adds to the weight), but it has a hefty pair of EI core transformers and heavy duty heatsinks adorn each side of the enclosure.

 

[TLS Guy]

Oh we're definitely lunatics. I was looking at a Yamaha MX-1 yesterday and was this close to buying it but the store selling it did not have to means to properly test it for me and I was at least 100 miles from home and I wasn't about to drive all over creation just to get the equipment necessary. So I guess maybe I'm only part lunatic.

You didn't buy it though did you? You did due diligence.

I still say though, that if you intend to own this type if gear, you need to know how to fix it.

 

[Seth=L]

You didn't buy it though did you? You did due diligence.

I still say though, that if you intend to own this type if gear, you need to know how to fix it.

I didn't. The price was very good but not if I couldn't see it working.

 

[Jack N]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies!

Swerd – Thanks for the link. That was an interesting article.

Ski2xblack – That was/is exactly why I started this post. It’s financially not feasible, and it would be a very time consuming process.

TLS Guy – Apparently there have been some very serious collectors that have entered the market in the last year. Prices have gone through the roof. There’s an M-85 listed on eBay right now with a Buy It Now price of $1950, and it’s not even restored! Seriously - $2k for a 30 year old two-channel amp?! And one ended a few days ago that was $1500. Makes the MX-1000 listed look like a bargain basement special at $900 plus shipping.

I’m genuinely surprised that you all feel the same about how amps sound. And as I mentioned, I’m actually glad to hear it. It makes a whole lot more financial sense. You’ve convinced me to go with new stuff. And apparently Emotiva is the most logical choice.

But now that brings up a new question. A few days ago Emotiva announced that they will be releasing their Gen 3 line-up early 2nd quarter. A complete redesign from the ground up, the new amps will be 25% more powerful, modular (can add channels down the road if you wish) and they’ll be abandoning traditional power supplies and going to an entirely different type of power supply termed SMPS (Switched Mode Power Supply). I know nothing about power supplies so I did some quick research. Turns out they’re much more power efficient, but at the cost of being more complicated to build and need carefully detailed shielding. Can someone explain in plain English how this type of power supply works, and is it worth waiting for, or would I be better off buying the Gen 2 amps that are on sale now?