LFE level on Yamaha RX-Z9

[PENG]

I don't. I did use YPAO and I checked with my SPL meter and it was extremely accurate. It just you said u like everything at 0 or closest to 0. Mine are +7db +8db for my mains, and 5.5 for the center and each surround at 7.0db I ran the test and checked each speaker individually there all at 82/83 db I just wanted to make sure I wasn't hurting anything by having those set that way That's all, meaning the levels of each channel. When I said. - 9. I was telling you where I had the master volume on the Z9 before checking the levels of each Channel . It was( -9 . ) Which is high. It goes from -79 to + 16.

LOL I did say that, but that's just my preference but if Audyssey happened to set them a little higher then so be it. For the subwoofer though, there is some merit to have the AVR level not too close to the limits and you have the flexibility to adjust the sub's volume control.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

It matters. Thank you for taking the time . I could rerun the test too, and bring it all the Channel levels down to 0 db but I don't know that I really gain anything.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I've been just trying to achieve the best level for my two subs. When I have ran YPAO in the past it's always set my levels pretty high which I don't understand because the speakers are 101 DB efficient and the center is 99db, and when you run YPAO is turns the volume to (+4 ) master volume then runs test. But like I was saying when I checked with a meter it was accurate. The only thing I did not like is the distance setting for the subwoffers . I'm only 11-12 ft away from the subs and its puts them 19.2 and 14 ft away. It's sounds way better putting the actual distance into the AVR to me. Then this whole LFE came to me. I had never messed with it before. I think I'll run YPAO again with the two subs and see what happens again.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I see what you are saying, maybe my sub levels were set to high and therefore the Z9 adjusted all the other channels accordingly, although I had all the speaker set To half of their adjustment range, before running YPAO . if I'm not mistaken subwoofers are the last thing YPAO checks when it does the level check . Lol. I will rerun the test with my subs at 9 o clock and all other speakers at half of their adjustment range then run the test

 

[PENG]

I see what you are saying, maybe my sub levels were set to high and therefore the Z9 adjusted all the other channels accordingly, although I had all the speaker set To half of their adjustment range, before running YPAO . if I'm not mistaken subwoofers are the last thing YPAO checks when it does the level check . Lol. I will rerun the test with my subs at 9 o clock and all other speakers at half of their adjustment range then run the test

John, if you had the sub volume set too high, YPAO should only lower the level trim for the sub. If it set the main speakers much lower than 0, it typically means your speakers are more sensitive than average and, or your mic position is close to the speakers.

I think we need to stop to clarify a few things:

- You do have Klipsch speakers all round right, if so they typically have higher than average sensitivity and YPAO will likely set the levels for those speakers/channel in the negative range.

- Did you manually adjust the level after you ran YPAO? If you do, and I suggest you don't, you should adjust all channel the same way. So if you increase front right by 2 dB, you need to increase all the other channels including the sub, by 2 dB. If you only want to bring up the center channel and the subwoofer channel by a couple dB that's fine, just realize you do it for a good reason. Many people do it so they can hear the dialogue in movies better and many prefer their bass on the "hot" side. There is generally no reason why you would want to change the level for the other channels.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

OK I think we are getting ahead of ourselves. I totally understand everything you said about speaker sensitivity, that is basic 101. I do not want to go in a adjust anything up at all. That wasn't my question, you are right all my speakers are Klipsch RF-7ll and Rc-64ll and rs-62, all well above average sensitivity. I ran YPAO and to (my surprise ) it had set all my channel levels high. + 7db + 8db and so forth. Then you had me questioning myself because, you said I should have all of them set to 0db. .. I did check with an SPL meter and YPAO was extremely accurate .

 

[PENG]

OK I think we are getting ahead of ourselves. I totally understand everything you said about speaker sensitivity, that is basic 101. I do not want to go in a adjust anything up at all. That wasn't my question, you are right all my speakers are Klipsch RF-7ll and Rc-64ll and rs-62, all well above average sensitivity. I ran YPAO and to (my surprise ) it had set all my channel levels high. + 7db + 8db and so forth. Then you had me questioning myself because, you said I should have all of them set to 0db. .. I did check with an SPL meter and YPAO was extremely accurate .

First of all, the only time I said I preferred 0, I was talking about the level for the subwoofer. When I said I preferred the level around zero I did not mean "set to" either, just that if they happened to be zero that's what I like and that for the speakers other than the sub, I will leave it to the auto calibration and will not manually change them. I have clarified that same point in my post#41. In fact if you re-read post#36 and 37, both me and herbu had asked you not to adjust it manually to 0 and I am glad you didn't. Thanks for that.

I further clarified that if auto calibration set the sub too low or too high from 0, I would adjust the volume on the subwoofer and then re-run auto EQ expecting it will then set it closer to 0. I would do that with the sub because I can adjust the volume and it is my personal preference. I would not do it with the other speakers (7 in my case) because they don't have volume controls so I really have no choice. Preferring 0 or close to it is just my personal preference because I don't want to do the math to figure out what SPL I am listening to at a given master volume.

Now you know why I have to asked again in my last post just to be sure. It is really strange that YPAO would set the levels so high for your Klipsch speakers. Again, if you ran YPAO according to instruction then it is okay, just strange that's all. In your post#35, if I understand correctly, your are getting 82-83 dB with master volume at -9, that means if YPAO had set the levels to 0, you will get 82-83 dB with master volume at -1 to -2 and that's pretty close to the expected 85 dB with master volume at 0.

I think you are all set with your level adjustments. Enjoy your system!

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Yea lol. When you use the automatic YPAO is sets the master volume to +4 almost full volume. When I've done it manually I've never turned the receiver up that high, I just thought it was unnecessary and turned the master volume up to -9 . Then with my SPL meter attached to a tripod , I got each speaker to 82/83 db . And like you said I've always adjusted the center channel little higher And obviously the subs where I want them. Music I like a lot of bass. Have a great thanksgiving , and thank you for all your help. I'll probably have to rerun YPAO again just to see what it does. But before I do I'll make sure all the channels are half of their adjustment range, then run the test, and the subs are at 10:00 on the back thanks again

 

[herbu]

When you use the automatic YPAO is sets the master volume to +4 almost full volume.

Hmmm... it's been a while since I had a Yamaha and used YPAO. When I go into manual mode to set individual speaker volumes, I can manually increase/decrease the master volume while setting the speakers.

You've mentioned manually doing this a number of times. That's not using YPAO. I don't know how YPAO or Audyssey determine the master volume setting during their automatic setup. I would guess they start w/ the master at 0 and target 85dB for each speaker... but I don't know.

If you want, take your meter, put it close to the YPAO microphone, and run the automatic YPAO. That should give you an idea of the target SPL it's using.

All my suggestions have been relative to manually setting your levels. As far as I know, that's the only time you have control of the master volume. At least with Audyssey, it takes control of the master during calibration. I can't change it. So don't get confused comparing dB levels set in the automatic setup with the dB levels you see during manual setup. Your master volume setting in manual may be different than what YPAO uses.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Yea I understand YPAO is completely automatic. When u plug the mic in you hit start. The receiver then automatically sets the volume. I was just saying when it does that, it auto sets the volume at +4. Also I was just saying that when I did the check with my meter I didn't turn the receiver up that loud. I used -9. I do understand Lfe now, however knowing now that LFE is low frequency effects which I knew but didn't know that it's just added to certain scenes of movies. Like u said explosions, earthquakes, and so forth. But why does( all ) the bass go away when u turn the LFE down ? And didn't Gene mention u should never have your LFE set to high? Happy thanksgiving

 

[herbu]

But why does( all ) the bass go away when u turn the LFE down ?

It should not... if you are set up correctly.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Well I believe I am set up properly. I have all speakers turned to small and bass out to sub. Crossover frequency is 80hz. Yamaha said that the LFE channel ( does not ) just carry LFE, it has two purposes, to carry LFE signals, as well as all bass from channels turned small.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Well I believe I am set up properly. I have all speakers turned to small and bass out to sub. Crossover frequency is 80hz. Yamaha said that the LFE channel ( does not ) just carry LFE, it has two purposes, to carry LFE signals, as well as all bass from channels turned small.

Yamaha is correct. When speakers are small, the frequency you set, 80Hz and below will go to the sub.
This is the reason your lows go low when you turn it down.

 

[PENG]

But why does( all ) the bass go away when u turn the LFE down ?

Well I believe I am set up properly. I have all speakers turned to small and bass out to sub. Crossover frequency is 80hz. Yamaha said that the LFE channel ( does not ) just carry LFE, it has two purposes, to carry LFE signals, as well as all bass from channels turned small.

Yes of course lfe carries bass from channels set to small. I assume you knew that from the beginning. So yes it would seem that you have set things up correctly.

Your original question was about the lfe level setting, that is not the same as sub level but now you know that too right?

 

[PENG]

John, I decided to copy the information related to LFE from the RX-Z9 instruction manual below so if you have questions we can always refer back to this post.

Page 62

LFE Level – Adjust the output level of the LFE channel for Dolby Digital or DTS signals.

Page 70

LFE Level (Low-frequency effect level)

Use to adjust the output level of the LFE channel according to the capacity of your subwoofer or headphones. The LFE channel carries low-frequency special effects which are only added to certain scenes. This setting is effective only when this unit decodes Dolby Digital or DTS signals.

Page 74

Front (Front speakers)

Choices: Large, Small

· Select Large if you have large front speakers. The unit directs the entire range of the front left and right channel signals to the front left and right speakers.

· Select Small if you have small front speakers. The unit directs the low-frequency signals of the front channel to the speakers selected with “Bass Out”.

Bass Out – LFE signals carry low-frequency effects when this unit decodes Dolby Digital or DTS signals. These low-frequency signals can be directed to both front left and right speakers, and to the subwoofer (which can be used for both stereo reproduction and sound field programs).

Choices: Both, SWFR, Front

· Select Both to direct LFE signals to the subwoofer. Front L/R low-frequency signals are directed to both the subwoofer and front channels, and all other low-frequency signals are directed in accordance with other speaker settings.

· Select SWFR if you connected a subwoofer. The unit directs all LFE and low-frequency signals in accordance with other speaker settings.

· Select Front if you have not connected a subwoofer. The unit directs all low-frequency and LFE signals to the front speakers (even if you have previously set Front to Small in Speaker Set).

It looks like you have everything set up right, but if you still have doubt about something may be wrong, you can try resetting the processor to factory default condition and then run YPAO again, following the instructions on Page 33-34.

After that, double check to make sure:

- All speakers are set to "Small", so that the low-frequencies of the front, centre, and surround speakers will be directed to (in other words, added to) the LFE out.

- Crossovers for the front, centre, and surrounds are set to 80 Hz.

- Bass out set to SWFR.

- LFE level set to default "0" (I am assuming the default setting is 0 but you can confirm that as you have the AVR and I don't).

- Check the speaker levels (see Page 76) and let us know what YPAO set them to, including the subwoofer level (again, this is not the same as the LFE level).

Resetting to default condition could possibly fix minor corrupted software but if you are happy with the way the unit is behaving and everything sounds good, then you should just relax and enjoy. The RX-Z9 is (or I should say "was") indeed a very high quality flag ship Yamaha unit.

Edit: You should also double check to make sure your L & R channels are in phase, that is, + to + and - to - at both the AVR speaker output terminals to the speaker input terminals. Normally YPAO should be able to detect whether they are in phase or not but you never know, only take a few minutes to check things out.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Yes I do PENG. Thank you

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

The unit does run through a wiring check. Everything is perfect. I didn't mean for this to get crazy but PENG thank you so much and everyone else who helped me. This drove me nuts for one reason . When I listen to music, I listen to Pandora through my Sonos. Ok now when listening , I'm like most and like the bass hot, so I turn the subs up. The back of the subs (then) were turned up to 12. And in the AVR to about + 5, now when I listen to Movies it was much to much bass . So I turn them down for movies. Now when I listen to music again , I have to turn the subs Up . So I'm trying to find a happy medium. A level in which I will love for music and movies and then leave alone !! Lol that's why i messed with the LFE so much , since that level control (only ) affects movies. So then when I got back to (music ) I'm not having to adjust again . I'm not really crazy with how YPAO adjust the subs. Or sub (distances ) . But maybe that's my problem, maybe YPAO Sets the distance in a way that they really should be set.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I also realize now that the LFE level controls all of the bass in the movie for me, because all of my speakers are set to small. And like you said the LFE, is only in certain scenes of movies . So when I adjusted my LFE down to -5, ( I wasn't doing it during certain scenes that LFE would be available, ) so turning LFE down in essence was just turning the bass down . . I understand it all completely now, so adjusting the LFE down was probably dumb , however turning down the LFE allowed me to keep the bass levels up in the AVR and I wasn't adjusting those again when I'm back listening to music

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

But to satisfy my curiosity , I will rerun YPAO. Before doing so i'll make sure all speakers are at half of their adjustment range and subs are at 0 in the AVR , and also the volume on the back of the subs at 10 or 11. YPA0 allows you to pick and choose which test you want to run. So in my case I will only run (distances )and (leveling ). I'll let you know

 

[PENG]

But to satisfy my curiosity , I will rerun YPAO. Before doing so i'll make sure all speakers are at half of their adjustment range and subs are at 0 in the AVR , and also the volume on the back of the subs at 10 or 11. YPA0 allows you to pick and choose which test you want to run. So in my case I will only run (distances )and (leveling ). I'll let you know

I am not sure about YPAO but my educated guess is that you don't have to touch the existing setting because auto setup will total control of everything. If you want to eliminate all doubts then I highly recommend you do a processor reset before running YPAO.