LFE level on Yamaha RX-Z9

[PENG]

Yes.

I wanted to say thank you too you again. I read over a few times your post and yes it completely makes sense . Thank you for taking the time.

With due respect I have to disagree somewhat with Wayne. If the article I linked is too much for you to read, then I suggest you at least re-read herbu's post#14. As he said, LFE is a channel, as such the level from say 0 to -10 or -20 is not the same as the subwoofer level that is adjustable by the sub's volume knob and the AVR's subwoofer level. It is not meant for use to balance with you other speakers because the LFE level adjustment affects only Dolby and DTS movies.

For music (unless it is Dolby or DTS 5.1/7.1) the LFE level should have no effects. It seems to me your Klipsch subs in your particular room may just happen to have major bumps in the low frequencies up to 120 Hz. Question: when you say the volume is set to 12 do you mean 12 O'clock position? All my SVS and Rythmik subs are set to between 9:00 to 9:30 am. Even with them set so low, Audyssey still set my subwoofer level set to somewhere between -1 to -3. I think the AVR subwoofer level should not be in the plus range, thugh +2 is not that bad. I suggest you try to lower the vol setting to about 11:00 position and AVR sub level at around 0, but set the LFE level back to 0 for movies. If nothing work, may be your subs are too close to the walls, if so, try to move them out to at least 2 ft from the walls.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Yes I had my sub volumes on the back set to 12:00 o clock. I have set them now to (10:00 ) I did read that entire article you sent me. thank you. If the LFe level is not a volume to be used to balance with your other speakers, what is it used for? is it adjusting the input (sensitivity to the subwoofer? ) Or the volume to the LFE channel on the DVDS. Meaning, would it be the (bass volume )for the (LFE channel), But you say it's not a volume It has to be one or the other. It's adjusting something ? I did adjust with my Radio Shack SPL meter. My subs are now between 87-89 db. My back sub is at + 1 and front sub at + 3. I have my LFE at -5 still. When I put my LFE level back to (0) I have to now turn the volume in the AVR down to -7 -8. Which I hate for music. It seems with the LFe turned down, I can adjust the subs up to my liking for music , and they still sounds phenomenal with movies . It's just weird hope this helps I realize the LFE level has nothing to do with music, but when you turn the LFE down I can adjust the the volume for the subs in the AVR to good music levels, and when We do watch a movies I'm not having to turn the subs down a I was before.

 

[3db]

And one more thing. Music was not the problem at all. It was a problem watching movies. It just seemed to be way over bearing on the bass frequencies . For example when my fiancé when she watches the voice, the bass from tv shows / movies was just to overbearing. So I would have to turn the subs way down, and still seemed overbearing. Adjusting LFE has made all the difference

You still may come across this now even after your calibration due to the mastering done of the bluray/dvd. For instance, the bass in teh Underworld franchise is mastered on the hot side so I have to turn down the LFE level a little on the AVR to compensate...that is whne my other half is in the house.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Cool. Where do you set your LFE setting ?

 

[PENG]

But you say it's not a volume It has to be one or the other. It's adjusting something ?

John, I did not say "it's not a volume", please re-read my post for my exact wording. It really does not matter and I can explain this again. LFE level adjustment is different in the sense that the adjustment "adjusts" the LFE channel level only when the AVR is decoding Dolby and DTS contents. That's why you can't use it for matching/balancing the volume of the other speakers, for that, you have to use the "Subwoofer" level and/or the Subwoofer's volume knob.

herbu, 3 dB and I are basically saying the same thing, just different words and to different level of details. I suppose that can be confusing because you may trying to decipher what each of us are saying and it may even appear to you we are conflicting with one another.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Ok. I understand that. I know that all the LFE level adjusts is the LFE level only. I Also know that LFE is not in music. Also I know u can't use it to balance with the other speakers. And I have never listened to DTS music . Please forgive me but I'm really trying to understand what you are meaning. When DVDs are created the producers have a special LFE channel which carries all of the bass content for these movies. The receiver/AVR, only produces this LFE channel when the receiver is decoding DTS or Dolby Digital . When these producers are recording these movies they record the LFE channel pretty hot correct ? Hence is the reason Yamaha or other manufacturers allow users to adjust that level down so that the bass is not overbearing in certain circumstances , depending on movies and how they were recorded. So am I correct in saying that adjusting that LFE level does not control the input sensitivity Of a sub? But allows a user to turn the LFE channel down when the receiver is decoding Dolby digital or DTS meaning, the bass ( volume ) for that channel only ? Thank you again

 

[PENG]

Ok. I understand that. I know that all the LFE level adjusts is the LFE level only. I Also know that LFE is not in music. Also I know u can't use it to balance with the other speakers. And I have never listened to DTS music . Please forgive me but I'm really trying to understand what you are meaning. When DVDs are created the producers have a special LFE channel which carries all of the bass content for these movies. The receiver/AVR, only produces this LFE channel when the receiver is decoding DTS or Dolby Digital . When these producers are recording these movies they record the LFE channel pretty hot correct ? Hence is the reason Yamaha or other manufacturers allow users to adjust that level down so that the bass is not overbearing in certain circumstances , depending on movies and how they were recorded. So am I correct in saying that adjusting that LFE level does not control the input sensitivity Of a sub? But allows a user to turn the LFE channel down when the receiver is decoding Dolby digital or DTS meaning, the bass ( volume ) for that channel only ? Thank you again

Yes, you are correct. Now you will agree it is not the same as the subwoofer level. I guess you can think of the subwoofer volume knob as a fixed gain control. Once you find the comfortable setting, say 11 O'Clock, you can forget about it and just let Audyssey, MCACC, Dirac Anthem ARC or whatever Room EQ software manipulate the "levels" in the AVR, or you can easily and conveniently make changes to those level trims using the remote. So those two, i.e. levels in AVR, and the volume knob on subwoofer serve similar purposes but function in different ways. The knob is like a coarse adjustment to find the right range, while the level trims are for fine adjustments. The LFE level is to allow the user to enhance or reduce the LFE channel contents to his/her liking. In the case of Denon, it default to 0 for Dolby and DTS movie contents based on the typical 10 dB (IIRC) "hot" mastering that 3 dB alluded to in post#23.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Thank you PENG. And to everyone else to helped me. I'd be willing to bet there's a lot of people who don't understand LFE level. (Time for a video. Gene. ) Or at least mention it in a video Thanks again PENG

 

[PENG]

Thank you PENG. And to everyone else to helped me. I'd be willing to bet there's a lot of people who don't understand LFE level. (Time for a video. Gene. ) Or at least mention it in a video Thanks again PENG

You are welcome, and I may not be 100% right either, hopefully got it more or less right though.

 

[herbu]

When DVDs are created the producers have a special LFE channel which carries all of the bass content for these movies.

No! No! No! Oh, did I say "No!"?
John, I think this may be the source of your confusion. The LFE channel DOES NOT carry all the bass in a movie. LFE contains special effects stuff like earthquake rumbles, rocket launches or submarine depth charges. LFE stands for Low Frequency Effects. "Effects".

Your subwoofers do 2 things.
1) They handle bass, taking that burden away from your speakers. Your AVR crossover lets you decide the frequency around which it stops sending sound to your speakers and instead sends it to your sub(s).

Maybe you have bookshelves with useful bass only down to 80Hz. Maybe you have big expensive towers that go down to 22Hz. The AVR manufacturer doesn't know, thus they give you the option to adjust the crossover to your speakers.

2) They get LFE. In fact, ONLY your subs will get the LFE signal. It is not sent to your regular speakers. If you don't have a sub, you don't get LFE. Period.

Now, when you set the volume of your subs with Audyssey or YPAO or manually with a meter, you are setting THE BASS, not the LFE. If your movies sounded muddy, it was THE BASS, not the LFE. I know you keep saying it sounded better when you turned down the LFE. Somehow, you were turning down THE BASS, or possibly it was just in your head.

Remember, the LFE is a special effect. It is thunder, monster foot stomps, explosions, deep rumbling shaking stuff. Not music, (usually), or even normal TV/Movie stuff much.

 

[PENG]

No! No! No! Oh, did I say "No!"?
John, I think this may be the source of your confusion. The LFE channel DOES NOT carry all the bass in a movie. LFE contains special effects stuff like earthquake rumbles, rocket launches or submarine depth charges. LFE stands for Low Frequency Effects. "Effects".

Your subwoofers do 2 things.
1) They handle bass, taking that burden away from your speakers. Your AVR crossover lets you decide the frequency around which it stops sending sound to your speakers and instead sends it to your sub(s).

Maybe you have bookshelves with useful bass only down to 80Hz. Maybe you have big expensive towers that go down to 22Hz. The AVR manufacturer doesn't know, thus they give you the option to adjust the crossover to your speakers.

2) They get LFE. In fact, ONLY your subs will get the LFE signal. It is not sent to your regular speakers. If you don't have a sub, you don't get LFE. Period.

Now, when you set the volume of your subs with Audyssey or YPAO or manually with a meter, you are setting THE BASS, not the LFE. If your movies sounded muddy, it was THE BASS, not the LFE. I know you keep saying it sounded better when you turned down the LFE. Somehow, you were turning down THE BASS, or possibly it was just in your head.

Remember, the LFE is a special effect. It is thunder, monster foot stomps, explosions, deep rumbling shaking stuff. Not music, (usually), or even normal TV/Movie stuff much.

Wow, I was trying to agree with John quickly when it seemed he finally got but I missed the important words "all of the bass contents" he used. I would have corrected that but like I said I missed that part. I would like to add that the bass in the LFE channel rarely exceeds 120 Hz and that is really low bass, not just bass.

Thanks to herbu who has sharp eyes otherwise I would have inadvertently misled John.

Well done herbu!

 

[herbu]

I missed the important words "all of the bass contents"

Thanks, PENG. I "miss" most of the technical stuff. And by "miss", I mean "don't understand". But some of the more pedestrian stuff rings a bell, mostly because of what I've learned in this forum. It is why Audioholics is such a good resource. The "team" here has levels of expertise to match up with most questions. I'm happy to help w/ the casual audiophiles because I are one.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Thanks, PENG. I "miss" most of the technical stuff. And by "miss", I mean "don't understand". But some of the more pedestrian stuff rings a bell, mostly because of what I've learned in this forum. It is why Audioholics is such a good resource. The "team" here has levels of expertise to match up with most questions. I'm happy to help w/ the casual audiophiles because I are one.

Thank you so much Herbu, I am going to turn my LFE back to 0 and just adjust the volume of the subs in the AVR. I will also turn the subs down to 10 o clock before adjusting volume in the AVR. Thank you again.

 

[PENG]

Thank you so much Herbu, I am going to turn my LFE back to 0 and just adjust the volume of the subs in the AVR. I will also turn the subs down to 10 o clock before adjusting volume in the AVR. Thank you again.

You will be doing the right thing. Don't be shine turning the sub volume down further either. I have my PCU12 down below 9 O'clock, my PBU13 at -15 to -20 (this one has a digital display). After running Audyssey the AVP still set it to -5.5 but like most other people around here, I bumped it up manually to -3.5. I always prefer it to be at 0 or slightly below 0 to make sure the AVP/AVR has plenty of headroom.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Thanks PENG. Do you also like to keep all your other speakers at 0 in the AVR? For example. I have Klipsch Rf-7ii's, I turned my Z9 to -9 on the (main volume ) then used my Radio Shack SPL to get all the speakers at 82-83 db, so I have my left speaker at +7 and the right speaker at +8 to achieve this . My mains are powered by a Mcintosh Mc-252. What are your thoughts ?

 

[PENG]

Thanks PENG. Do you also like to keep all your other speakers at 0 in the AVR? For example. I have Klipsch Rf-7ii's, I turned my Z9 to -9 on the (main volume ) then used my Radio Shack SPL to get all the speakers at 82-83 db, so I have my left speaker at +7 and the right speaker at +8 to achieve this . My mains are powered by a Mcintosh Mc-252. What are your thoughts ?

No, for the mains you have no volume controls on them so leave it if the AVR levels are set to below 0. If you increase it from say -9 to 0, then you have to increase the sub's level too to match. If you leave things alone, it means when you have the AVR master volume at 0 you should get ref level when watching movies from your mic position. If you mess with you will have to do your math to figure at what volume to get ref level.

 

[herbu]

I turned my Z9 to -9 on the (main volume ) then used my Radio Shack SPL to get all the speakers at 82-83 db

John, PENG is right. Remember, when you use your meter, you are balancing the speakers relative to each other. You're not setting the overall volume.

If you set your Z9 volume to -9, and your speakers show 74-75dB when set to 0, it's OK. Or you can set your Z0 to 0, and your speakers will show 83-84dB when set to 0. That's OK too. Whether your speakers show 74 or 84 during calibration doesn't matter. The thing that matters is that the levels of all speakers, including your subs, are the same.

Say your listening position was 6' from the Left speaker, and 20' from the Right speaker. During calibration you would have to increase the volume of your right so at your seat their volume is equal. The overall volume is controlled by you and the master volume on your Z9 during normal listening, not during calibration.

So don't try to make everything louder during calibration. Make everything match. And use "0" as your target. Maybe you'll need to raise/lower a speaker by 1-3dB due to their position in the room relative to your seat. But try to have your individual speakers close to zero.

Powered subs have a gain/volume on the sub itself. If you calibrated your speakers at/near 0, use the volume on the sub to get it at the target level with your AVR sub setting also at 0. Remember, your AVR has a limited range for individual speaker/sub volume. It is usually around 9dB. That means the most you can increase the volume of a single speaker/sub with your AVR is 9dB.

So if during calibration, you used the AVR to increase your sub volume 7dB, and for a movie you decide you want more, the AVR will only let you turn it up 2 more dB. If you used the volume on the sub during calibration so you hit your target level with the AVR at 0, you have the full 9dB to play with.

Hope this helps a little. No matter where you put your Z9 master volume during calibration, try to balance all your speakers and subs so they are as close to 0 as possible.

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

Ok I believe I understand. Like you said, no matter where the master volume is, the only thing that matters is all the speakers are putting out the same SPL . Is it bad to have the levels in your AVR set high? What are you harming doing so ??

 

[PENG]

Is it bad to have the levels in your AVR set high? What are you harming doing so ??

Not really as long as they are within the limits, that is +/-10 for your RX-Z9. The example you used before was 9, that's okay but that's pretty close to the maximum. Again, I prefer to leave it to the auto calibration setting. Why do you want to increase them manually after the calibration?

 

[JOHN FICKEL]

I don't. I did use YPAO and I checked with my SPL meter and it was extremely accurate. It just you said u like everything at 0 or closest to 0. Mine are +7db +8db for my mains, and 5.5 for the center and each surround at 7.0db I ran the test and checked each speaker individually there all at 82/83 db I just wanted to make sure I wasn't hurting anything by having those set that way That's all, meaning the levels of each channel. When I said. - 9. I was telling you where I had the master volume on the Z9 before checking the levels of each Channel . It was( -9 . ) Which is high. It goes from -79 to + 16.